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Final Wipe and Lot Selection

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by DarkStarr, Jan 28, 2016.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    I kind of wish there was something larger than a Metropolis. :)
     
  2. Astrobia

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    @DarkStarr Miricale Dragon made an excellent proposal regarding the whole, smaller lot prospecting issue as part of the discussion in this thread and I think it excellently addresses the issue and should be considered.

    This is an excellent compromise that caters to all parties. High level backers who want to live in a smaller home can still do so, and having paid more, even the benefactor baron backers would still be in the first group that gets to take a shot at town lots, so that promise is maintained without explicitly undercutting the town lot tiers. This is much more in keeping with the intent behind allowing higher level backers to claim smaller lots to live in. Lot prospectors are encouraged to actually prospect in their own lot size, which would have been then intent when they actually backed before all the changes opened this loophole. But can still prospect as the first group of a smaller lot size if they want to.

    As far is this particular issue is concerned it's the fairest solution all around and most in keeping with the original sentiment behind the proposals.

    We still need to come up with a way to level to playing field for people prospecting from the safety of POT, but this would be an excellent step in the right direction.
     
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  3. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    I'd like to speculate with my higher tier. I paid to do that, regardless of if I had a POT or not.

    If I bought a ticket to the front line of a sporting event or a show, would the event hosts contact me and say "I'm sorry sir, it's been brought to our attention that the people that paid less than you just don't think it's fair that you have such a good seat for this event. We're going to have to ask you to stand with that mob of people over there and fight for your seat like everyone else."

    Or how about if I go on an airplane and I buy a ticket in coach. Does this give me the right to elbow my way into first class when the plane starts boarding?

    The answer is.....uh no.
     
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  4. HoustonDragon

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    From an opposing player opinion, @DarkStarr , I think the announced land rush schedule is as fair as the team has made it, and I would prefer seeing more time and effort spent on other endeavors towards the upcoming final wipe. My 2 cents worth.
     
  5. Drocis the Devious

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    Actually, let's explore that airline example a bit more.

    So say someone buys a first class ticket for a plane ride. That person decides, I'd rather sit in coach. So they walk back into coach and trade the ticket. They DON'T walk back into coach, sell the ticket and then walk back into first class and sit down in their seat. That's essentially what Astrobia's concern is. And that's a fair concern.

    To make matters worse, if we follow this logic through using POTs, that same person might then sell the ticket in first class and then jump over to another private plane and fly off to complete their destination.

    So the question has to be this, is the result of the land rush a destination? Is this really like someone buying a first class ticket to Florida, but then reselling those tickets TWICE and flying on their private jet, never having any intention of actually using the ticket in the first place?

    Because the person flying first class paid for a first class ticket and the private jet. Those two things were bought and paid for. The only real problem is using the first class ticket to buy the seat in coach, selling it, and then going back into first class. During the Land Rush, we would either have to stop the person from buying the ticket in coach (lower tier) or we'd have to stop the person from going back into first class after they sold the ticket. We can't stop them from going back into first class because those are exclusive rewards (LOTM and DUKE lots). Nor can we stop them from using their first class ticket in coach as that was already promised.

    However, what we might do is create a moratorium on lot trades DURING the land rush. We might also EXPIRE any DUKE or LOTM lots that go unused at the end of the land rush, including POTs (castle and keep markers would have to be selected pre-land rush). This would make it so the guy with the first class ticket could still use it in coach, but he can't sell or trade the ticket until the plan ride ends, at which point there would no longer be a private jet or a first class seat available to him.

    I think that would be fair. It still would allow some musical chair speculation, but it would not allow high tier backers to have their cake and eat it too.
     
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  6. Astrobia

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    I seriously doubt such a minor change would result in any significant extra development time when they are working on implementing the system. Is that's your concern?
     
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  7. Bubonic

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    I don't think MD's solution would require any extra development time.
     
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  8. HoustonDragon

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    My concern is further changes lead to more disputes and arguments over the perceived "fairness" of the land rush, which leads to more time spent on this versus other things (like combat, crafting, artwork, etc). Of course, it's not fully fair. I don't think that was ever promised, since the concept of the land rush was about competition for the lots. They've given us a schedule and notice to be prepared for it.
     
  9. Astrobia

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    More?
    I don't know about that. I don't think we can make what is probably the most contentious issue "more" contentious. :p

    Plus you also have to remember outside of Dev+ this is the first time a lot people get to see this information. Fresh weighing in on it now is to be expected. Dev+ vets things but they don't get to decide everything for everybody.
     
  10. Lord Andernut

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    I appreciate that this would make a lot of people happy, but also a lot of people unhappy, namely, anyone who upgraded their pledge for earlier lot selection. There are definitely Developers who upgraded to Citizen to get a better row house location. Because location mattered to them more than deed size. And this is fine, and legal, because this information has been available and consistent from the time of kickstarter.

    1. Higher pledges get earlier lot selection.
    2. Deeds work on every sized lot at or below their level.

    Directly from one of the kickstarter pages, and it may appear several times in several pages and videos but I grabbed the easiest quote:


    All along we have known that the claiming structure will allow people to pledge to higher tiers to try and claim their preferred lots sooner.

    I do not dispute there are ways to prevent larger deed holders from claiming smaller lots, I am saying that it runs counter to what has been promised to those players - they can claim any size lot, and they can claim those lots before smaller pledges get to claim.

    A Navigator can pick a row lot before an Ancestor can. Just like a Citizen can claim a row lot before a Developer can.

    I'm not really in favour of the method seeming to allow speculation - but it was was pitched and confirmed and re-confirmed for almost 3 years. I think it is a waste of energy to ask Portalarium to remove one of the perks of, basically anyone, who pledged at Citizen level or above.

    Removing, reducing, or changing, perks associated with pledges is a pretty big issue - and changing one that directly resulted in more funds for Portalarium is pretty serious.

    I'm actually quite fine with restricting lot selection to lot size - I think it will probably give me a better lot location really since it would put people who pledged higher than me in the same selection window as me, instead of being ahead of me - but it breaks a kickstarter promise to backers and anyone who pledged higher for a perk specifically mentioned by developers (earlier lot selection) is going to feel betrayed and angry, and rightfully so.
     
  11. Lord Andernut

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    This information has been public for as long as the game has been public.
     
  12. Miracle Dragon

    Miracle Dragon Legend of the Hearth

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    Some people upped their pledge a few dollars hoping it might move them up in the claiming cycle, others more than a few dollars, but the scale was never defined clearly, so we were all 'speculating' with our pledges. My suggestion just puts everyone in higher tiers in the highest selection bracket for a lower lot size, so it's still full-filling the kickstarter promise.

    My proposition was careful to not cross the line when it comes to the wording of the kickstarter, it's just a little more in favor of lot selection with deeds corresponding to their actual size - but it still allows everyone to speculate with lower lots. In my opinion, unlocking the lot sizes with their respective pledge-tier window is more fair than leaving it the way it is now, without crossing any lines worded in the kickstarter. It just brings back a little of the risk that seemed apparent during the kickstarter, that disappeared with the development of POTs.

    Now if the truth behind POTs is that they were created to allow backers to freely speculate without risk during the land rush, then this is not the game I thought it was. That is something that wasn't in the kickstarter, and which I understand some feel needs to be corrected to a degree before the land rush. Otherwise, all the prime lots in the game's NPC towns will be owned by POT owners and their friends, and we'll see a huge out of game market for this property which will make me want nothing to do with the online community for years to come.

    I don't think that was the intent when POTs were introduced, so I'm proposing some very small incentives to help prevent risk-free speculation from being a major part of this game. If my fantasy world is all about money, they might as well put guns in the game and I'll just turn off the computer because it's become everything in the world that I normally play games to avoid.
     
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  13. Drocis the Devious

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    That's not an incentive, Miracle Dragon. It's the removal of a promised reward.
     
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  14. HoustonDragon

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    This goes back to why I dislike the "housing bubble" involvement with real life transactions in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always had the understanding and impression that the goal was to allow for rampant speculation, trading, and yes, direct money deals involving the online player housing. I've seen Richard in the interviews and webcasts talking about how people were able to buy and sell their virtual property, and even the Player Marketplace rather bluntly points out that they will let folks buy, trade, and sell pledges, deeds, etc just fine. Port's only real caveat that I've seen is that they don't want to be the brokers or have direct involvement in it (buyer beware, basically), but for myself, I've always labored under the assumption that this will be a lot like UO in some respects, with folks buying and selling goods not only in game, but outside of it as well for actual RL monies.

    I personally refuse to get involved with it, that's all. I'd much rather play a Single Player or Friends-Only version of the game, where any outside wheeling and dealings can take place well outside my purview or knowledge, and thereby not directly affect me. It's another reason why the concept of POTs are fine and all, if they were managed under the actual GMs, but with it being the way it is, I can completely expect to see some POTs (not all, since I do see there are those who appear to be working towards community and not profits) end up flipping as much as a HOA does in real life.

    It's somewhat disingenuous to suddenly claim the land speculation has never been about money, since it was openly stated that the high end backers would reap the benefits of early placement due to the financial backing they provided.
     
  15. Dumdidum

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    The crux of the matter is not as much that high end backers will get great lots. They payed a lot of money and more power to them if they do. But, if i read through these 37 pages, its about the rest more or less being forced into a POT.
    And i can imagine that if you pay 300 or more dollars for a game (most have not spend 300 dollars, ever, on any game) you would at least expect to have a safe haven after the land rush, not being pushed into a spot where you are at the mercy of another player.
     
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  16. Drocis the Devious

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    The devs have said that there will be enough lots during the land rush that no one will be forced to go into a POT.

    They have also said they will make 30% more lots available on top of however many are pledged and purchased in the add-on store.

    No one is going to be forced into a POT during the land rush.

    The "concern" that people have appears to be based entirely on them being at lower tiers and not getting the prime foot traffic lots they want. Although that's an understandable concern, it's not really cool that the solution seems to be to punish the people that paid the most.
     
  17. HoustonDragon

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    I fully, and loudly, agree and have said the exact same thing. The Devs have also stated, repeatedly, that their intentions are to provide ample space with NPC and player-run (but still owned by the game) towns. Will they be in prime and highly sought after locations? I have no idea, and neither will any of us until after the land rush happens, and we see what spaces are left open for everyone else.
     
  18. Fionwyn Wyldemane

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    While I can understand your concerns, your post seems to be filled with a lot of speculation. I'll comment about the part after *HOWEVER*. Yes, I do see the caps :)

    I don't understand how anyone can "sell the lots and do so again and again until the market is saturated..." If a PoT owner has two deeds on their account and claims a spot during land rush that they plan on selling after the land rush ends, they can only sell it one time. Even if 100 PoT owners did this, they can't do it again and again or saturate the market. People only get to claim one lot per account during the first round of the land rush.

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this idea that there will be "hundreds of players lot speculating without consequence" seems to assume that most PoT owners intend to claim lots outside their PoT and sell for profit later. Some will, some won't. My own speculation is that if 100 PoT owners go this route that'll be on the high side. 100 lots claimed by PoT owners for sale later is a drop in the bucket.

    It really doesn't matter how many PoTs there are, what matters is how many PoT *owners* there are and what their account level is. I'm sure there are PoT owners out there who have accounts that are *not* in the top three tiers, who may place a lot for a reason other than selling it later. Maybe it's in a town on the other side of a control point or they plan on giving the lot to a friend. (The same applies to the high level PoT owners.)

    The fact is that you don't need to be a PoT owner to play the speculation game. Every LoTM, Duke, Baron, and on down the line that has an account with two deeds can play the game. Aim for the better location first round with a view toward selling it later and then claim whatever lot you can as the place to live in for round two. These people will be speculating without consequence because they intend to make some money. Where they *live* is of secondary importance.

    When you add to that how many accounts a person has, whether they plan on claiming a lot for each account during land rush, where they plan on claiming, etc, there are just too many variables to speculate what *anyone* is going to do during land rush or worry that PoT owners are going to be the ones going out in force to grab all the choice Row/Village lots.
     
  19. Lord Andernut

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    I think it is still ignoring this promise:
    **Village waterfront lots available to Village, Town, or City property deed holders; higher value pledges have lot selection priority over lower value pledges

    It is very hard to interpret this as "Town Owners are in same lot selection bracket that Village Owners are in", it says Town Owners have lot Selection over Village overs.

    This is all coming from the side of someone who would benefit from your model because I am at the top of my own bracket and would rather nobody above me could claim my lot-size.

    I would really prefer they could not claim my lot size - but there is no method of interpretation that makes me feel that I would be justified in requesting that Portalarium require people who pledged to higher tiers than me wait until my lot selection window to claim a lot.

    Additionally, take the case of a Baron wanting a Town Lot. If you put all the Barons (Benefactor, or whatever) wait until the Royal Founder 2300$+ tier, you are still placing them above the majority of players (Above all Benefactors, all Founders, and all Royal Founders that pledged between 1500-2200 for Lord to Lord Marshal) anyways. So it basically decreases the perk of those higher pledges to put them on the same footing as the Royal Founder Lord Marshal who over-pledged by $100.

    I wonder if it in fact harms the placement of more people than it benefits? I'd need to look at the numbers to see if Barons+Dukes+LotMs < RF Lord Marshals with more than $2300 pledged.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  20. Dumdidum

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    Problem is, they have given themselves very little time to implement these extra spaces, and they are not yet in the game, leaving it to everyone to guess about if it will be sufficient for someone who pledged a small fortune. So yea, once more, i can understand why a topic like this gets page after page of worried people.
     
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