Creating a Justice System

kaeshiva · Apr 18, 2017

Sorry, guess I am misunderstanding what is said by "or has not somehow otherwise opened himself to fair attack" - isn't flagging for PvP opening yourself up to attack? Not trying to be pedantic, just wanting to make sure this is clear. If I'm gonna get garotted at the crafting table, its a problem

KuBaTRiZeS · Apr 18, 2017

kaeshiva said: ↑

Sorry, guess I am misunderstanding what is said by "or has not somehow otherwise opened himself to fair attack" - isn't flagging for PvP opening yourself up to attack? Not trying to be pedantic, just wanting to make sure this is clear. If I'm gonna get garotted at the crafting table, its a problem
Click to expand...

Yes it is true is a statement quite open to interpretation, but consensual PVP is something that won't go away... Maybe that's why by default i read that as "PVP flagged player ambushed by another player without notice or acceptance". I'm sure @redfish would love to elaborate.

That being said, if you're flagged PVP you may be garotted at the crafting table but if you don't you're fine.

redfish · Apr 18, 2017

Yea, I explain this in the OP,
"This would effectively mean you could consent to PvP, but not consent to being murdered."

The operative word in "or has not somehow otherwise opened himself to fair attack" is "fair." So if you're at a crafting table minding your own business, and some guy has no "legal" reason to attack you, but he comes up stealthed behind you and does, then he'll be flagged an outlaw for murder.

Consensual PvP won't go away, but the current system of PvP flagging is just a free-for-all, while the concept in the OP is to give it more structure through justice mechanics, same way UO had justice mechanics. I think this would be good for many reasons, including that it would bring Role-Playing to PvP, serve as a basis for some meaningful PVP content where there would be real motivations to fight, and would encourage more people to flag.

MrBlight · Apr 18, 2017

Something something virtue system promised.

Havnt seen much or any elaboration on how they want to inplement it. Nor a time frame.

TheWanderingPoet · Jun 6, 2017

I'm a bit torn in some of this.

While I like the idea a player should be allowed to opt out of the crime system, but be unable to commit crimes.
Because for people like me, I can't afford to have a player robbing my house or murdering me because I'm questing in their zone. (This is already done through other methods I am told)

The main issue with this is consent. If I do not consent to being murdered I can still be heavily inconvenienced, especially a casual player questing or a new player. It brings up the chance for griefing. But in turn a PvE player should not be able to benefit from the bounty.
The ideal route would be to use the oracles protection. I assume if she is protecting you from crime she would also prevent you from committing crimes.

BUT this would give pvpers their risk and reward exclusive to pvp. Bounties. They whine for something exclusive and this would give them that.

But not nonconsensual opens windows for griefing players like me who will not fight.

If it must have you flagged PvP to participate in all of this then go for it.

As a healer though I think that this system would be ideal for me, because the current system considers healing a crime. I should be permitted to heal my party without being marked as a criminal. However if they have committed a crime, yes, prevent me from healing them.

majoria70 · Jun 6, 2017

redfish said: ↑

The open-bounty mechanics that the devs said were being discussed for dealing with thieves [ Fall into Winter Telethon ] is actually similar to a mechanic I suggested a while ago for something else !

In that case, it was a suggestion for dealing with trespassers when the debate over banning players from POTs was raging here on the forums. In short, I disliked the idea of invisible walls, so suggested that banned players on entering a POT could be flagged as 'outlaws' and marked for justice, targetable by both players and guards. I also suggested the same mechanic could be used for players trespassing and breaking into other players' homes.

I believe that the game could further develop these type of mechanics and use them as the building-blocks for a full-fledged justice system.

CRIMES.
Whenever a player committed a crime, he would be flagged as a criminal and 'outlaw' for use in whatever justice mechanics existed in the game. The list could be expanded as the game continues in development, but there are a few that could be within the scope of the current game.

= THIEVERY. Stealing from an NPC or a player.
= MURDER. Killing a player who is not in a guild you're at war with, or has not agreed to a duel, or has not been marked an outlaw, or has not somehow otherwise opened himself to fair attack. This would effectively mean you could consent to PvP, but not consent to being murdered. The game wouldn't stop the murder, but it would mark the murderer for justice. The charge could also include killing an NPC, if that type of behavior is allowed in the game.
= TRESPASS. Breaking into a home, either of an NPC or player. "Hard bans" would go away; instead, doors, both on homes and gates on property, would lock for players who are banned from a property. A player who has the "Pick Locks" skill under Subterfuge, however, could get past this by breaking into a home.

JURISDICTION.
I think an important aspect of a justice system should be where a criminal bounty is in effect. Is it global, or is it confined to a certain locality?

= NPC TOWNS. Committing a crime in an NPC town could mean that the player is flagged as an outlaw whenever he enters an NPC town, or it could be restricted to certain aligned localities. So, for instance, I doubt human NPCs would care if you murdered in Skrekk or Vertas, or a kobold would care if you killed in Owl's Head. Potentially, this could also be broken down regionally based on whatever political alliances the devs decide to put in the game.
= PLAYER-OWNED TOWNS. Committing a crime in a POT would automatically flag you as an outlaw in that particular town; although the POT governor could mark you as an 'outlaw' at any time at their own will by setting a ban on you. "Hard bans" would also go away for POTs. Instead, a banned player would just be marked for justice whenever they entered the POT. Potentially a POT could enter alliances with other POTs through a faction system, and that would mean that they could share a common ban-list. Possibly, POTs could ban entire guilds.

NOTORIETY.
To the extent that your bounty is shared between one locality to another, this should take some time. For example, every NPC town could have a "bounty board" somewhere, which shows players with an open bounty. When you commit a crime in Brittany, your name appears on the Brittany bounty board. To the extent that your name appears on the Ardoris bounty board at all, this would not happen instantly. Instead it would either take time, or require you commit more crimes in Brittany, or both.

= TIME PASSAGE. As more time passes on your bounty, the more your information about your bounty spreads to more towns.
= MULTIPLE OFFENSES. The more offenses you commit, the larger notoriety you develop, and the faster your bounty spreads to multiple localities.
= SEVERITY. The knowledge of more severe crimes passes around quicker.

WARRANT AND ABSOLUTION.
When you commit a crime, a player bounty is put on your head. You're marked an outlaw, and other players can attack and loot you, while you can't loot other players. Non-PvP players can attack you without permanently flagging themselves for PvP, while you can't attack Non-PvP players. Guards -- either in PC towns and POTs -- would also seek to intercept you and, in the case of an NPC city, give you a chance to absolve an offense ("Wilt thou come quietly?") before attacking. Absolving an offense in an NPC city would depend on a crime.

= THIEVERY. At the least, turning yourself over to a guard or magistrate, returning the item, and paying some sort of penalty.
= MURDER. No absolution. The bounty remains open until it can somehow be resolved.
= TRESPASS. Same as thievery, except there is no item to return.

FACTIONS.
As mentioned above under JURISDICTION, one possible way the justice system could be expanded is by recognition of factions, and by factions sharing ban-lists (lists of outlaws). This would also be linked to NOTORIETY in ways discussed above.

= PLAYER-TO-PLAYER FACTIONS. Alliances between POTs and guilds.
= PLAYER-TO-NPC FACTIONS. Bans in POTs would not carry over to allied NPC towns, but could carry over from NPC towns to POTs. By implementing justice for NPC towns, your POT/guild could gain a benefit of some sort.

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.
There would be multiple ways which someone could attack another player "legally."

= BOUNTY. If the player being attacked is marked an outlaw.
= OFFENSE. Being attacked first lets you attack back.
= GUILD WARS. Being in a war with the guild of the player being attacked.
= DUELS. Agreeing to a duel. Party vs. party duels would also facilitate "legal" methods of PvP in arenas.
= OPEN AREAS. Perhaps open areas outside of the Oracle's control, like Shardfalls.
= CONTROL AND AUTHORITY. For example, lets say in some future system, guilds are able to take charge of a control point [or at least the gated area -- as there are alternate paths], and players passing through are given a choice whether to pay a toll and pass, or fight. In this sense, the guild in charge of the control point is acting just like the Governor of a POT, in that they can choose who to ban or let through. The person who pays the toll is free to pass, the person who doesn't and enters the gate anyway has legally marked himself for attack.

IMPRISONMENT.
There were discussions on these forums a long time ago about incorporating a prison system into the game. I don't believe this would work out that well as punishment; a better solution would be a kind of outlaw-bounty system as described above. However, I think theoretically, apprehension by a guard could give you an option to go to prison as a penalty. The trick is, though, that I don't believe the prison stay should be timed, or your charge should be absolved when you've done your time. You could break out, escape from prison, and the game would allow you to, but breaking out of prison would return your bounty, making you an outlaw again, and putting you back on the bounty boards. Possibly, your crime would double, and the bounty would increase.
Click to expand...

I know this from a while ago but would it be great if a quest activates it? That way the tech might not be as complex because the quest activates it for those that participate. I always wanted criminal points types of quests and lately some high end quests seem like a point system to earn cotos would be totally awesome. Also since bulletin boards are coming in soon I so hope tech to get wanted posters on them could be managed too.

blaquerogue · Jun 6, 2017

I'm all for this! I would love to be a bounty hunter!!!

Deathadder · Jun 6, 2017

@redfish Very nice!

Time Lord · Jun 6, 2017

Deathadder said: ↑

@redfish Very nice!
Click to expand...

redfish said: ↑

Yea, I explain this in the OP,
"This would effectively mean you could consent to PvP, but not consent to being murdered."
Click to expand...

redfish said: ↑

The operative word in "or has not somehow otherwise opened himself to fair attack" is "fair." So if you're at a crafting table minding your own business, and some guy has no "legal" reason to attack you, but he comes up stealthed behind you and does, then he'll be flagged an outlaw for murder.

Consensual PvP won't go away, but the current system of PvP flagging is just a free-for-all, while the concept in the OP is to give it more structure through justice mechanics, same way UO had justice mechanics. I think this would be good for many reasons, including that it would bring Role-Playing to PvP, serve as a basis for some meaningful PVP content where there would be real motivations to fight, and would encourage more people to flag.
Click to expand...

Meanwhile at the crime scene

authorities are baffled to know the cause of death.
A big fish is at the center of the investigation

redfish · Jul 24, 2017

Aside from bounty boards in NPC cities, it would also be cool to be able to say... pick up jobs to assassinate other [PvP-flagged] players from a shady fellow at the bar in The Fall.

The jobs might be placed by other players, or just random, and the NPC would pay you for the job if you succeed regardless of what you were able to loot.

Elgarion · Apr 19, 2018

A bounty system would be fantastic.... sigh. By the way, I did do a simple Bounty system at RPOTA (in the RP Actions area), but it needs some lovin. Very simple at the moment.

*edit: And I love this post, btw! Hope they use it for some inspiration for bounties at some point.

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