Guild War System - Virtue and PvP

Take some time and read this in detail, could very well change the games mechanics and direction with very little effort for the reward it produces.

Ok, im going to attempt to make this as clear as possible for those that don't remember this in UO or unaware. For those that do remember guild wars in UO will understand the value of this system. What's great about this is it only affects people that want to fight and leaves the people that don't out of it entirely. (it's easy to make another guild and ally with them, while the main guild wants conflict) Lets the people choose their path of gameplay even more in depth (lets blue players be blue, lets red players be red, lets RPvPrs do just that) also rewarding in the Virtue paths taken. This will also result in stimulating the player ran economy, war always generates profit and competition.

The guild war system worked like this, its fairly simple. Two guilds that want to PvP or ally, declare war/alliance on each other at their guildstone - first you need to set the foundation of the terms. At the guildstone there is options of declare war, where you can attack, the number of kills, the duration, also declare who is a ally which all links in war context etc. Now once the terms are made, you send that to the guild you declare on or choose to ally with, they accept or decline. Any guilds involved can declare defeat at anytime to void the terms of the declaration of war. thus ending the conflict.

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Now let me break this down with articles off a UO fansite to explain it. "Ooohhh pretty pictures!"
All of this was taken off, take a look https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/player/guild-creation/










Now i understand this would take some work from the Portal staff @Chris @DarkStarr @Lord British, I personally think this would resolve alot of the frustration in the PvP community along with complimenting the roleplay community forming alliances, promoting group/guild dynamics. Giving each player type a place in the community, PvPrs can go PvP when and where we want to, roleplayers can go join forces and do quests and events in a more organized manor. Blue can be blue, Red can be red. It is no secret that PvPr's and RPr's are NOT happy with the way the systems are going, ill just leave it at that.

I'm sure Portal has some great ideas coming down the road, but this to me seems to be a essential addition that would really change the view on many things.

I understand this is going to be implemented, but this doesn't seem detailed enough or in depth, so this post is kinda add on depth of these features. Also want to ensure a way to have PvP without having to flag for it, aka a guild war conflict.

I would like to add, adding a alliance chat in game would be nice with these features. Additionally adding the option to be able to decide to have combat in guarded protection or not to on the terms of war, before people accept.

Leave your comments or ideas in a constructive manor below, thank you. If there is anything i need to add that I missed (it's been a while since i played UO) please let me know, will gladly add it.

Also check out, new item idea: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/spellbooks-as-primary-offhand.97902/
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I will mention this before you go on.

*****SUGGESTIONS IN FORUM THAT ARE AWESOME IDEAS TO CONSIDER*****
Will add more as they come.

 

Oh yes, I friggn Love It! I sure hope that a dev see's this for the value that it is. It is all encompassing for versatility. You can set your ROA (rules of engagement). Thank you for posting this.

 

Im not touching this thread. It gets me excited only to get pissed off agian.

 

If we need enough support and show the want for this, its the only way this can happen. I know it's hard to have hope for such great features then get pissed off again and again. This thing is this feature is VERY possible to obtain and it doesn't change the path or gameplay of roleplayers in a negative way, just gives positives for RP and PvPrs.

My suggestion is tell all your friends (Roleplayers and PvP) to give this thread some support and try to mention it in the future telethon's till it's heard.

 

This is great, one day I hope something like this will be in SOTA.

 

Well...it is already on their schedule lists but at least until now nothing they plan to implement till release.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...de-1-content-plans-aka-the-2-year-plan.97521/

Nevertheless I would like to see e.g. alliance chat, guild wars or guild interactions in general rather sooner than later too.

 

That is like a skeletal version of what guild warfare system is, i mean a skeletal as in missing a: head, torso, arms, hands.... All i see is some bare bone legs and worn feet missing some toes in this patch note.

The purpose of this thread was to expand on what guild war systems should be for alliances and PvP purposes, along with the benefits for all player types.

I'm trying to prevent them implementing a system like /duel or flag for pvp/go to certain zone and calling that a wrap, "there's your PvP, now shhh" I personally don't accept that as a justified PvP game/system.

I also strongly believe this needs to be a higher priority and be made ready for launch or we will end up losing important player base that will extend the interest time of the game, may even last as long as UO if done correctly. That's the goal.

Thank you for your comment

 

What is the purpose of it?

People can already flag for pvp if they are interested and engage with others who are pvp flagged.

There is also a couple of false statements in the initial post.

What's great about this is it only affects people that want to fight and leaves the people that don't out of it entirely -- This is not accurate. What happens if the guild you are in starts a war you have no interesting in joining? Everyone in that guild will effectively be flagged because the leader decided it and the only way to avoid it would be to leave the guild?

This will also result in stimulating the player ran economy, war always generates profit and competition. -- How will this stimulate the economy? Guilds going to war with each other won't change the economy in any way (unless people want to bet on the results I guess...)

From the very few pvp type posts I've seen on here (insert sarcasm emote) the PVP people want rewarding for their effort, more than they already are for being flagged. This system doesn't address any of the pvp concerns people have, it just gives it an interface for war to be declared but what are they fighting over? What is the purpose? You can have role play reasons for wanting to go to war but you can do that without this system and have people just flag up themselves.

 

False statements? sorry you don't understand fully. Not trying to stat a argument at all but your view is very narrow, obviously you didn't play UO for PvP purposes during guild wars. For that i will explain so maybe you can understand.

What's great about this is it only affects people that want to fight and leaves the people that don't out of it entirely -- This is not accurate. What happens if the guild you are in starts a war you have no interesting in joining? Everyone in that guild will effectively be flagged because the leader decided it and the only way to avoid it would be to leave the guild?
First wars are accepted on terms, you can't just war someone without them accepting it.
What happens if the guild you are in starts a war you have no interesting in joining?
I mean, that's kinda the point of working together as a guild? communication with each other?
Everyone in that guild will effectively be flagged because the leader decided it and the only way to avoid it would be to leave the guild?
There is terms presented in this idea, where you can engage deciding this, again. Guild communication.

- I sure hope a guild that you join communicates together making internal decisions?
-You don't have to accept anything.

This will also result in stimulating the player ran economy, war always generates profit and competition. -- How will this stimulate the economy? Guilds going to war with each other won't change the economy in any way (unless people want to bet on the results I guess...)
Wars do stimulate the economy, you buy potions, food, gear improvements to be competitive or work together for a goal being prepared for adventures or battles. What drives any economy... competition strives to be better, have better gains, supply and demand. I'm sorry but this isn't hard to understand. What is the largest profits in the world over in all of history? War. What is war? It's competition for territory, resources or simply a idea of victory in basic simple terms without the details of nit picking.

From the very few pvp type posts I've seen on here (insert sarcasm emote) the PVP people want rewarding for their effort, more than they already are for being flagged. This system doesn't address any of the pvp concerns people have, it just gives it an interface for war to be declared but what are they fighting over? What is the purpose? You can have role play reasons for wanting to go to war but you can do that without this system and have people just flag up themselves.
There are very few pvp type posts right now because lost hope of changes that were promised that never happened. People do want more rewards for their efforts and i agree with that, that is kinda a entirely different topic. But i will say this, more PvP happening and more people working together ultimately will give more gains to those that do take part, thus thriving more interest.
what are they fighting over? What is the purpose? You can have role play reasons for wanting to go to war but you can do that without this system and have people just flag up themselves.
They are fighting for fun, for loot, for bragging rights, for victory? PvP doesn't always need a point but this goes into another topic of territory control which is going to be introduced shortly that this can be applied to amoung other designs eventually. Now the current flagging system is not exactly the same as a entire guild agreeing on terms to fight, where they can engage (town, or instances) Most PvPrs hate the flagging system, it is horrible tbh - adding these guild war features creates more of a open world feeling without there actually being one. I would much prefer a UO criminal system which i've said in many posts. Yet again another topic entirely.

To me, your bringing several issues into this one great concept (which is already planned to be put in the game on a bare bones skeletal level, im trying to expand that system) and trying to look at negative points not seeing the real whole picture of the rewards of this be implemented. Also if you don't want to be a part of it, that is your option. This system was put in place in UO and it was one of the greatest features along with the criminal flagging system, just to back up my claims.

 

My only concern.
Wont work with the actual wide gap between a level 50 and a level 80 for example more true for a level 80 versus a level 100. I would like to test if a group of level 80ies can harrass a level 100.
Imho not possible. The level 100 will kill them all one after another.
The whole Skillsystem lead us to have all be Torpid Torment, Deathshield and other skills maybe some combine with blades others do doublewands. Why have Staffs already? Only Deco?
Etc... Etc....

Like the system, but wont get involved into pvp until its more interesting, varied and balanced skillsystem, less power gap between players, so that a guilds peons are able to make also their contribution in fights and not only in Ressource gathering for war etc...

Many things that dont fit for pvp in my eyes.
Guild War System and RPvP is all fine, but the whole gamemechanics arent made for diverse characters fighting interesting and challenging fights.
The System is made for cherrypicking skills and master as much as you can to get resistant and as high as it's possible, because in the end, 2 equal skillfull players with equal Equiped gear using the same schools and skills, it's about doing the 3 more extra damage.
So spent time and doing this 3 extra damage vital.
And it's endless progression.
Sure Skill can compensate a lot, but it's still an unbalanced, powergaming favoritism, less varied system.
I cannot see pvp to be successfull implemented without caps and without limitations.
And to be honest, if i choose to be a Watermage i dont want to skill fire for Resistance etc...

I would like to take PvP and many more gamemechanics related things into my roleplay, it would encourage me to create stories, Adventures abd war, but not with this skill system.
A casual gaming roleplayer.

P.s. Btw i love the combatsystem and many of the game and i have focused on other things, since i recognized whats about skills and pvp, competition at all etc. and ended up frustrated 2 times, because i need to ignore this content, because the skillsystem wants me things to do I dont like.
1st powergrinding
2nd min max a fotm Avatar

 

I mean, if your guild as a whole isn't ready for a declaration of war, then don't declare war or accept it(this is where guild communication comes into play). Nothing says anyone has to accept a war dec, what i'm presenting is the option for those who do want it (virtually has no effect on those who don't take part). This system is not all about conflict, it just streamlines it with terms of war.. It's more of a benefit for people to ally and work together for common goals and tasks. If your worried about things not being balanced I can understand that but that's a different system entirely (the combat balance) than trying to get teamwork, competition, alliances, territory conflict involved. It's simple really, if your not ready for war or don't want a part of it just use the system to create alliances, more people to play together/socialize with. Use the alliance systems to work together for common goals, stories, role playing whatever you want, but this also helps people that want to have conflict do so in a terms of agreement (organized before even accepting on both sides).

The main part of your argument for this is balance of skills/spells. That doesn't even come into play if your not at war, that's just part of the game that needs to be fixed on a entirely different issue all together. The benefits of a system put in place to forge alliances and teamwork along with conflict and fun while stimulating the economy heavily outweighs the negative (which i really don't see any negative, tbh). The system is already going to be implemented in the future i'm just trying to ensure its done correctly, not some half done job that will piss off the community further.

This system was in Ultima Online and was one of the best features offered, along with the criminal flagging system, its tried and proven to be awesome. I can only see it enhancing this game, its not a forced thing. All options are consensual and agreed upon.

 

This is exactly what the game needs (amongst other things). I played UO for the best part of a decade and the guild war system was excellent. Can be used by those who want all out pvp action or RPers. There was a very large and successful RP community on UO Europa that used this very function.

It also leaves those who wish to have nothing to do with Pvp free to play the game as they wish

Pvp game mechanics are a different matter of course. In a RPvp situation the guilds could agree a mutually accepted set of parameters to help mitigate game mechanic issues and help evrn out the contests. For example in the UO scenario I was involved in there was a restriction on only using certain armour and weapons to even out the playing field somewhat. Of course such things require mutual trust and co-operation between guilds but it worked really well.

Of course other pure pvp guilds would have different ideas but thats the whole point and they could fight one another to their hearts content in their own way too.

 

Exactly, the other feature other people seem to forget is. You can call off an alliance or a declaration of war at any time. Ending all issues if there any that comes up. There is only positive outcomes to adding these guild features, literally.

Thank you posting and supporting the idea, I agree it needs to be in SotA and would offer so much more to the gaming community, more than most can even imagine.

 

Yes of course these are just some dev notes and I do not want to stop the discussion...just wanted to express that they have that in mind and as at least a part of the devs know UO ( ) I think they will create something more or less similar.

Maybe they should favor features like these but I think the devs will have enough work to do to implement all features that are still on schedule for release and implementing and balancing still missing basic core function is still more important.
Perhaps they could offer a more complex feature plan at release to show the new and old avatars what is tangible coming in the next months. Even if there is no guild war system at release the knowledge that there is coming this feature in X month with Y features might still be sufficient...war needs preparations and thus the time could be used to be prepared.

 

Dont get me wrong, i am totally pro this guild war system.
It's just about some will never ever be able to compete if they dont give up their "roles" other than the Avatar of all Trades ;-) and such.
But good thing to have one looking forward encourage better pvp mechanics at all.

 

I do agree with the balancing that is needed, by far. It's not ready for this game to be called "balanced PvP" (hell, i wouldnt even call this a PvP game currently, lol) but there is nothing wrong with giving people options and more free for depth of what they want to play in the game.

I think your also viewing this as of right now... In the near future there will be massive advertising with a massive player population increase making many varied levels not just high end PvP (hopefully) These systems will also help people increase levels faster, work together, you know all the guild stuff. Currently I'm not even in a guild i just want this implemented so i cant find my place in the world of future PvP. Also letting people know when they actually start playing for the first time there is plans on this type of features going to be involved will keep a majority of the population engaged. Ultimately keeping the population engaged on a daily basis, creating teamwork and competition is what the game boils down to, this is how you create some of the greatest features and friends/enemies.

Oh i agree there is important issues that need to be addressed. They also have the tasks very split up and very capable of tackling different aspects accomplishing the common interest of goals. This defiantly needs to be higher on the list and implemented before launch or we will see people run away because lack of features that players want, including this.

 

I think you misunderstood my post entirely so let me come at this from a different angle to try and explain.

What is the difference between what you have suggested and two guilds deciding to flag themselves for pvp? Taking each point in turn:
Only effects people that want to fight. - The system suggested means either the entire guild agrees or doesn't. With the flag system individuals could agree or not. You could have 10 people in the guild who want to flag up and fight and 5 that don't.

Stimulating the economy - We already have the virtue league and people who are always flagged. Those people will want pvp gear regardless of whether your system is implemented or not. As a crafter I have already outfitted most of our guild with equipment for pvp purposes. This system doesn't really change that, its already happening.

What are they fighting over? What is the purpose? - You are wrong in your assumption that I wasn't part of the UO pvp crowd. I took part in it for many years and the system you described above had a purpose. Vice Vs Virtue was mainly about control of towns, you could earn silver coins (the only way to get them) which could be further used to buy rewards with. There was also champion spawns that were specifically placed in Felucca dungeons and the only way you could get power scrolls was to go in expecting pvp. In shroud there is nothing in the pvp zone worth fighting over. Your statement of them wanting to fight for fun, loot, bragging rights and victory can still be done with current flag system so nothing of what you have suggested would change this.

I do understand what you are trying to say but nothing you have suggested would improve the current system unfortunately.

 

Well I would think that people joining a pvp guild or a RP guild involved in RPvp of some sort would expect their guild being warred with other guilds as decided by the guild leadership and a point of being a member of that guild would be an acceptance of that.

The pvp is given purpose either through the RP (which really does work) or in the case of out and out pvp guilds the buzz they get out of pvp itself while not imposing on others.

I was also involved in the Order v Chaos set up in UO for a bit which also gave purpose to pvp in a different way again.

The problem I think most everyone would agree is that the present situation does not work for anyone terribly well whatevet their play style and preferences.

 

What is the difference between what you have suggested and two guilds deciding to flag themselves for pvp? Taking each point in turn:
Only effects people that want to fight. - The system suggested means either the entire guild agrees or doesn't. With the flag system individuals could agree or not. You could have 10 people in the guild who want to flag up and fight and 5 that don't.
The difference is it's not a prepared spar, it gives the feeling of open world (which is severely needed). It always allows a entirely different play style of higher risk, watching your back even when your not flagged. I really dislike the whole flagging for PvP entirely, but that's personal preference. I would much prefer a more open world PvP system feel and that's what this gives. Along with many other benefits listed above.

- Different ways of combat give different outcomes... faction vs faction, order vs chaos, guild vs guild, flagging vs flagging, unflagged engaging a flagged.

Stimulating the economy - We already have the virtue league and people who are always flagged. Those people will want pvp gear regardless of whether your system is implemented or not. As a crafter I have already outfitted most of our guild with equipment for pvp purposes. This system doesn't really change that, its already happening.
This system adds more options for more PvP and adventure groups/roleplayers to gather, thus giving more items to purchase and want? It's fairly simple. More is better?

What are they fighting over? What is the purpose? - You are wrong in your assumption that I wasn't part of the UO pvp crowd. I took part in it for many years and the system you described above had a purpose. Vice Vs Virtue was mainly about control of towns, you could earn silver coins (the only way to get them) which could be further used to buy rewards with. There was also champion spawns that were specifically placed in Felucca dungeons and the only way you could get power scrolls was to go in expecting pvp. In shroud there is nothing in the pvp zone worth fighting over. Your statement of them wanting to fight for fun, loot, bragging rights and victory can still be done with current flag system so nothing of what you have suggested would change this.
Your describing a system that was added as a aftermath, past T2a. There was also faction wars for control points (which i would love to see that in game also, along with order/chaos) As far as i'm concerned T2a killed UO PvP all together, made less rewards for combat all together. UO after t2a, it was horrible, it was never the same... Along with made a huge amount of the population moved to emulated PvP servers or played different games entirely.

Now the purpose of this is again, another issue that needs to be justified as in territory control, town control, events, goals to fight over. That has nothing to do with putting in place the structure of teamwork and competitive non-flagged PvP.

Sure, you can do this with the current flagging system, but not really. It's more of a set up duel or a spar. Declaring war on a guild let's you engage without having a set place, allows for more of a hardcore play style which many of us want.

I'll say it again.
- Different ways of combat give different outcomes... faction vs faction, order vs chaos, guild vs guild, flagging vs flagging, unflagged engaging a flagged.
What is wrong with more options? really? lol.

Even after saying all of this... your still missing the point. This system (as a skeleton) is coming into the game and there is nothing wrong with giving constructive input on how the so called "muscles and skin" of the skeleton and features should play out. As far as your input it's nothing but this won't work, i don't see the point. That is not constructive.

Thank you for your input... but i'm looking for constructive feedback or ideas that can improve this system, not bicker about hows and nots.
This system.

 

Not trying to get into an argument over it, I was trying to give constructive feedback and my opinion of your suggestion is that it adds no benefit over the current flag system. You can flag 100% of the time and still have the open world war, I know a lot of people in my guild who do just this for the thrill of having to watch over their shoulder when they are out and about and to add a little danger to it. Its not just planned events duels and sparring.

If you are looking for suggestions for pvp you can take any of the following which actually add something to it:
Daily / weekly repeatable quests with a reward system (gives silver coins when completed), can trade rewards for items such as unique cloaks, decorations etc
Dungeons that can be fought over, capture the flag and your guild gets access to that dungeon for 1 hour after which the control point resets and another guild can come take it from you.
Unique titles for PVP achievements.
PVP towns that can be fought over that once controlled give the controlling guild cheaper items (regs, crafting fuel etc)