Ethnocentric/ Quasi-religious Content in SotA

Thou hast lost an eighth...

 

Heh, someone's trying to get the thread closed. Instead, they'll likely get banned.

 

The devs should've named them trees and candles then.

 

I'm not a troll dude,
I just don't want ninjas, something equally dumb to come jumping out of the woods and ruining my good time...
And I really don't want ugly buildings like a pyramid, or a mosque, or something equally dumb looking to ruin my good time, even if there is PVP.

 

That's a questionable comment on a forum where you could literally be banned for any subjective reason.

 

I did say that in game they would be a bit more strict....

 

The post doesn't have to be an academic thesis, but it should follow basic rules of logic, fairness, evidence and the disclaimer that it is personal opinion. The "message and overall reasoning" of the post was quite flawed and in fact was pretty unclear. If one wants to state the opinions expressed therein as a personal opinion, that is certainly legitimate. People are free to say anything they want about history, and usually feel freer to do so than on other topics. However, to claim authority to pass ideas as historical fact takes a lot more demonstration and argument that is not appropriate for here, and certainly not legitimate for a simple post.

I think the original intent of the thread was to talk about people's feelings about religious content in SoTA, not to attempt to deconstruct any particular faith tradition. The former is a discussion that is quite interesting, the latter better left to people who have studied it more.

 

The last three or four pages have been a draining read. This thread as a whole seems to be a good example of why religion, politics and other controversial content are out of place in SotA. In addition to being lore-breaking in every other MMO (admittedly they fit with the outlander avatar business of SotA), they incite too many arguments, almost always about sensitive topics.

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested that our earthly religions could be poised against the native SotA NPCs who have their own traditions. I love the idea in theory, but after thinking on it more, I realized we can't have outworlders championing any world religions, because we can't have SotA NPCs (who resist and fight outlanders) resisting and fighting our world religions. The lore element does fit, but there would be a thread far worse than this if an NPC was caught burning a christmas tree or a menorah as a statement against us avatars.

 

There were some statements made months ago with the introduction of the Eddelman house from German backers stating the house was not representative of their traditional homes and that it was as if someone took a liking to Bavarian-styled housing and called it German. Now, I'm not well-versed or versed at all for that matter in German architectural styles, but it speaks to the point that you have this sort of "Mr. Magoo"- type of meandering through the world stumbling on things like the Viking house or the Edelmann house and introducing them as what? An homage to whom and why the exclusivity? One could (and this is not my opinion), conceivably, perceive this as celebrating some sort of bastardization of the Übermensch concept. Yes, that statement was meant to be provocative but with good reason -- it's about perceptions, and not the oblivious American bull-in-a-china shop marketing that is taking place.

I know I stated once that Japanese fandom did a good bit for Ultima's popularity, but they don't get their friendly nod as a tier or a house because they got their theme in UO and there was, from what I have read, a backlash against ninjas and samurais? India, Brazil, and China are huge markets; why not appeal to them in their exclusively-themed tiers? In a few posts up above, a poster said he/she would not want to see mosques or pyramids or ninjas jumping out of the trees or other "dumb" things like that in the game. Well, as charged as the comment is, the poster has a point in that someone is going to be pissed off by seeing Earth-based things (or was it Eastern civilization-based things?) because of the perceptions surrounding the symbols. Thus, we have the all-or-none argument concerning these symbols' place in these games; and in case it isn't clear, I'm for the "none" part of the debate not because of my atheism, but because it is impossible to satisfy all players in regards to these sort of symbols.

I'd like to add also that not only am I an atheist, but I was raised as a Muslim, so I feel qualified in saying that Islamic holidays kind of suck in that there isn't so much in the way of symbolic items for the actual two Eid holidays and having everything revolving around prayer, fasting, and eating. Also, and I've brought this up as well in the gospel-preaching thread, it would be hard to virtually pray as one or do so socially with others because there would be an expectation of animations regarding the postures and genuflections involved; and also, where is Mecca in relation to New Britannia? So, with the exclusion of a major world religion consisting of over one billion people because of these technical concerns why should other religions be represented because they do have symbols and idols that are able to be modeled and merchandized?

Look, my argument is not about denying anyone their symbols. It's about the Devs being so short-sighted enough to deny others their symbols and allow for others to have their own meaningful or meaningless ones. Again, this is about fluff vanity items. So, to the point whether these symbols kill immersion, you are correct; that point is irrelevant; but if they cater to a segment of the population while ignoring others, then that point is relevant, especially for those players who enjoy common meta-social activities in games. Thus, by leveling the field by dealing only with lore-based symbols and events that are unrecognizable from Earth-based religions, you negate the problem of this sort of unequal representation and marketing. That's what this thread is about.

 

This is an honest opinion.

Yet do you think you could ever eliminate all symbolism and ties to real world culture? I think that's pretty impossible. For example, if animist religions believe there are spirits in natural items like trees and rivers, do we eliminate those? Same thing on the cultural dimension. Fighting is based on Western medieval culture. Everything has a parallelism and a level of symbol. Some are more overtly religious in nature than others, but only in degree not in kind.

The other extreme is equally flawed - let everyone have whatever symbols they want. No game designer could ever expect to succeed by allowing white supremacist symbols in the game. You just have to draw the line somewhere.

What we are left with is this: someone has to make a choice about what to include/exclude. There will never be a clear line as to what falls should be included or excluded.

Therefore, in gaming I think designers still have to make the call. If it floats and people play it great, if it doesn't appeal, people should play other games. Just like those who buy religious holiday cards versus those who don't. I think opinions could be solicited, but still ultimately someone has to make the call. Such is the case with every other element of game design and I don't see why this should be any different.

I think most realistic for this game in particular (i.e. one with real world avatars) would be some import of symbols from Earth. What these are I am not so concerned about. But if someone has a religious symbol like an ankh in their yard, and the next door neighbor despises them, they have to learn to live with it. Just like this world. Could we expect that symbolism somehow gets purged in the transition into the new world? I don't think so. There will be one person with a crescent on their arms, on person who wants Tibetan prayer flags in their yard, another a shrine to Vishnu in their house. That would be what I think would fit this game the best.

 

You're right; and I stick with my assumption that someone is Mr. Magoo in this case.

I will disagree on the bit about fighting based upon Western medieval culture, since weapons and armor existed and were implemented in Eastern cultures during those same medieval times. Were the Janissaries, for example, considered Western or Eastern? What of the Mamluks? What of the Mongol Horde? I think what's important is to not have the lens skewed in one direction or the other so as not to include those who helped drive the impetus of the arms race of the time.

Ha! Lens... you know what the funny thing is? This discussion reminds me of the underlying conflict in Ultima VI. Maybe that Yule tree needs to be thrown into the Void to be appreciated by both camps from far, far away.

 

I maybe should have been more specific that I was referring to the particular way it is implemented in SoTA, the styles of weapons and armor are Western. I didn't see any in the demo that looked like they were based on other cultures....

The Void/Abyss can be a religious symbol too...

 

You know, very few of the symbols we are discussing, or indeed the holy days they relate to, hold the same significance they did at their inception. Most of them are, in fact, a melding of several cultural icons across ethno/religious/sociopolitical boundaries. As Vyrinor points out, we have our biases. Marking a holy day is about personal identification, except in those ghastly cases when it is forced upon you.

I would argue that these cross-traditional mergers have contributed significantly to the survival of new cultures that resulted from the clash of societies. Identity submerges into and rises from the cultural sea over time as practices are lost and revived.

There was fascinating story a few years back about a researcher finding Jewish traditions intact in Mexico, being practiced by non-Jews. Well, their ancestors had fled the Spanish Inquisition and, while they hid their religious identity, they continued to practice rituals such as stomping an egg during a wedding ceremony. These rituals lived on beyond their meaning. Or perhaps it could be said that their meaning outlived the practitioners' understanding.

When it comes to bringing traditions with us from Earth, there is nothing limiting our role-play. The team has merely given us some props. And who's to say they will be used as originally intended. There is no unified tradition of the birth of Jesus among Christian believers, for instance, and even the divisions we speak of here are arbitrary and obtuse. Regardless, I'd say the divisive tone of much of this thread fairly spits in the eye of all sacred traditions.

As we grow together as a community, we will learn to share the celebration of each others' traditions in kind, and create new ways to mark our friendship, our unity, and our virtue.

 

This is a great post, Rild, but that last sentence got me thinking that perhaps a better way might be to have the community gather around the virtues we are familiar with (if they are the same as in the Ultimas) through the lens of our personal identification. I'll link what WtF Dragon or Ultima Codex as we know him here has done with his essays on virtues. I think anyone can approach the in-game themes through their own understanding of their own personal ethics/ religious beliefs and add to a conversation and learn from one another to foster unity in the community around those virtues we have become familiar with or have upheld in our gaming experience. Maybe we can have props for accomplishing that in the form of virtue rune stones or cards or some other prop that can be marketed but revolves around the lore which we can plug into coming from any background or belief. I would be glad to throw money at that.

 

Well said, rild.

 

As a Christian, I don't really see the big deal about the trees. I don't associate that with Christianity at all. Additionally, UO, and likely SOTA, had lots of pagan/cult symbols that didn't offend me. I just learned to tolerate them for the fun of the game, because not everyone believes what I believe. That's fine, I respect that, and I respect you! Further, I certainly hope that SOTA doesn't include any overtly Christian symbols into the game, because that would be unfair to other people and their beliefs. However, at some point you just gotta let some things slide and move on if you want to enjoy the game. That's life. You can't please everyone. We are human begins who like to play video games. Let's find common ground in that. There is enough hate and judgment in this world as it is (all sides). Hope this helps.

 

that's very dude of you

 

The Yule Tree really tied the room together.

 

I too am shocked when I read a book that doesn't feature every culture and religion on the planet---past, present, or future. I get quite riled up when I overhear a conversation between two people that fails to include all possible permutations of ethnic tradition and custom. Why, just the other day I went to a local tavern and ordered a pint. I stormed out after the bar tender neglected to mention Zoroastrianism when telling me how much I owed for the pint. I mean, he could have at least included Dravidian cleansing rituals in there, right? The last straw was when I read Harry Potter and saw NOTHING about Dionysus or Zeus. Unbelievable.

 

What... is this thread about anymore?