A Retrospect into the Dumbing Down of PvP

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Bambino, Jun 30, 2018.

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  1. redfish

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    @Rook Strife

    Glyph stacking basically is the same mechanism as combos, and combos are great IMO, the devs just haven't taken to its full potential. Especially with spell-casting, because it allows players the ability to compose spells on the fly. Like fire + water = steam. Etc.

    Ideally, you would be able to make same-glyph combos, but you couldn't do this because its indefinite, as even the same-glyph combos would need combos. The only other option would be keeping combos but restricting stacking, but this would just lead to awkwardly inconsistent mechanics IMO.
     
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  2. redfish

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    Anyway, although I agree with some of the OP, I don't fully agree because I think there's still advantages to using drawn decks, and besides, though I believe in skill, I think the skills required by the game should be more on the tactical grounds of combat, ie in playing certain skills against others, using the terrain to your advantage, etc.

    I think there are a lot of reasons why combat doesn't feel more tactical. One of them is the level of hybridization created by the fact that T1 and T2 magic skills don't really have a barrier to entry or cost to using them, so, for instance, everyone has Healing Touch, not just players who specialize in Life magic. Another is that there isn't much interaction between combat and the environment. We have cover now (yay!) but few battlegrounds in the game let you take advantage of it. Stealth skills would be better if they worked better in shadow, too. It would be nice if our fire skills could set brush on fire, gust spells could lift up sand, etc. Not enough proper counters to skills, too many of the counters are resistances (passive skills). Combat rolls don't really help much.

    I'm fine with the heat system. Personally, I would even add to it by making it so that when a player uses a buff glyph two times in a row, it works the same as when a player charges it up two ticks. It would double up a skill and extend it.

    I'm not a big PvP player, but I am interested in the same goals as in the OP, which is making combat more skill-based. PvE of course desperately also needs mobs that play by the same rules as players, or have their own rules, per mob type: for example, most can't see in the darkness, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  3. Rook Strife

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    So, the most basic elements of combat are broken.

    Add more complexity to improve it?

    Why not? That's what we have been doing for the past few years.

    Eventually it should work itself out.
     
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  4. Uncle Ben

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    It would be a good idea to make all the PVP scenes and events to have capped skills so that more people would be encouraged to participate in the activity.


    As for the off topic part



    After you capped in UO you can still do many other things like growing plants, treasure hunts (too bad we don't have that), and of course PVE to no end.

    SOTA also offers plenty of fun activities and probably will have even more introduced in the future than just gaining skill levels. As for PVE in SOTA, you can deal with majority of the mobs with your main dps and defensive skills hitting GMs or lower. You can kill a dragon/phoenix without any meaningful fire attun as long as you are using fire ward gems combined with deflect/parry skill at the right time (I've tried it before and worked very well).

    If you are not a grinder, then don't grind your skill over 100 or simply stops at any point that you start to feel uncomfortable to level further. Getting your skill going above and beyond GM makes you gradually getting a bit stronger/easier when dealing with PVE situations. It is not required yet there is no need to hinder other players who enjoys leveling their skills further (above 80/100) from doing so.
     
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  5. redfish

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    @Rook Strife

    Nah... I'm talking about the same thing you are, shifting combat to become more tactical :D In some instances, more battle ground elements would help; in most of my post , though, I'm pointing out some problems with the way things exist now.

    I don't see a basic problem with the heat system, though.
     
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  6. Rook Strife

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    There are plenty of problems with Heat and rather than getting into how each affects combat here is the most important consideration

    What are the odds we are going to have reasonably balanced skills? How long is this going to take?

    Now what are odds when you have to account for each skill being able to be spammed in succession 5+ times or charged up to varying degrees?

    It took 3 years to put in basic targetting
     
  7. Bambino

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    PvP & PvE can formulas work on different grounds. This last change you saw was a blanketed pass; let just hope it isn't approached that way in the future.

    You are saying that PvP will never be fair and I should go play a game that's more focused on PvP? The playerbase doesn't need to be shed any further. I should be able to create an avatar in less than two months - I shouldn't have to deal with no-lifers 2-3 shotting me. It's not PvP at that point.

    In PvE, have at it. 5% is more than short-siding the impact, and not everyone plays the game to kill monsters like you do. If you consider killing monsters for hours on end a way to keep you interested, then that's you. It is not a primary component to maintain player retention.

    I put my time in. I should be done. There needs to be stopping point. I put in 2 months of cheezing The Rise/Upper Tears. My time is being devalued by people that have time to get more powerful in PvP by playing for hours on end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  8. Bambino

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    This is already the case - They work on different formulas in several cases. PvP has it's own rule-sets. Infinitely more complex? C'mon... We need to leave the monster killing formulas alone for a while and focus on PvP formulas.
     
  9. Bambino

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    Yah, you miss the whole point - The stuff you purpose is not fun at all when you have grinders instantly killing you. There is nothing academic about it.
     
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  10. Bambino

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    Yes, you are a great PvPer, you can kill a lvl 100 with a lvl 70. That's not the point. Combat forumlas...
     
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  11. Hornpipe

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    Out of the 3 names you give, I know at least one which involves using exploiting combat imbalances with the skill system as it is (I should still have her hand placed somewhere on my dresser). So yes, the game allows to kill higher level players with high success, but only if you play this game in a certain way and certainly not with every build this game should have to offer (as an RPG game). And most of all, when gear and avatar skills choices are the main way to go in order to be performant, the game is not based on actual player skill anymore, but on a xls spreadsheet tactic with at least, ideally, a 15/25 sec buff preparation before every fight, which is precisely what @Lord British tried to avoid when he said that the players should not be able to min/max . I hardly see how fun it can be to use a spreadsheet or to win a fight with a min/maxed build... or to copy the tactic of the neighbor because it's the OP way to go when there is no real performance (and no fun, at least for me) with doing that :rolleyes::D "win without risk is to triumph without glory"
     
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  12. Stundorn

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    @Uncle Ben
    Regarding diminishing returns
    [​IMG]
    It's ~ 30%

    I have 1700 hours level 80 toon what startet right after persistence as a pure Mage and that was a chore.
    I then skilled some Swords and other stuff.
    Nothing higher than 80 because 80+ is more of a chore to me.

    Xp required to go from 80 to 100 is 5 times the XP to get to 80.
    Correct me if it's outdatet Information, i didnt play since release.
    The XP to GM a specialisation skill is 10 times the XP of the Stat Skills what is 12 Million xp.
    My Stat skills arent at 80 iirc.

    Too much grind!!!

    If Portalarium thinks running in circles for thousands of hours to kill mobs only to get stronger to be able to compete.
    If they think grinding Dragons,Trolls, Demons is fun and nothing special, well it's just not my game.

    It's not envy, it's about the feeling the world is completely disbalanced .
    Im a roleplayer, i dont want to roleplay King of the Hill, i want tension, a challenge, fun.
    I also dont want to play the cannonfodder or sheep.
    People argued with effort= reward
    Put work into to be stronger.
    I allways argue that i'm playing AFTER WORK and dont put effort in, but play a game.
    Luckily the Devs at Rare Studios for Sea of Thieves and some upcoming MMORPS (e.g. fractured) have the same attitude to gaming and grinding.

    To know you are a whimp in a game after playing it for over 1000hrs and finished Main story questline plus many other Tasks while others just grind 24/7 the best Spots for xp/hr what make them cap the XP at 1Million/hr is just a ridiculous lame gameplay.

    A question to the pvpers.
    How did you train Chaos skills.
    Real pvp or Duell with Friends or is it working with a Training Dummy?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
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  13. kaeshiva

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    Actually, that's not what I said -what I said was that if *I* wanted to jump right in to a game that requires little to no time investment before getting into the action and for it to be "fair" - there are other options. Sota has always been a marathon, not a sprint - and some of us like it that way - gives us something to do, goals to set, for years to come. I don't want to see this game turn into a wham, bam, powerlevel for a week and now you're done, go PvP game.
    We'll have to agree to disagree, here.


    When you start pushing skills over 120, 5% is I think overstating the amount of benefit you get for millions of experience invested. The curve becomes a brick wall at that point.
    I re-iterate the point - if there is no benefit to continuing to play and level and grow your character for years, you take away one of the key reasons to retain players for years.
    Maxing out in a month of time and then what...running around killing people and exchanging ransom money? How long will that be fun for? I did it for like, a single evening, and it got a bit old.
    I'm not saying grinding XP is necessarily fun either, but at least there's progress on your character, you are working toward something. Or most of the time, I'm acquiring 'stuff' :X I like stuff.

    There are a lot of games that do it, don't get me wrong - play for a week or two, max out your character - then its PvP for like a month until you get bored - I've played them, and there's nothing there to keep me playing them for very long after that.


    So you think that you've spent two months doing the "rpg" part and that's it, you just want to PvP now - and that everyone else in the game who has spent more time on character investment /development should be brought down to your level so you have a fair shot at killing them? That sounds incredibly self-centered to me. Its fine if you think you are high enough, have done enough grinding, and just wanna jump in now - nothing against that - but making that decision for the entire playerbase? Its like saying you spent an hour in the gym and want to be on equal footing with someone who's been in there training for months. If we could all be done in an hour, there'd be no reason to keep going every day. (And then who would pay gym memberships for years and keep the place open?)

    Despite all of this though, I do fundamentally agree with you - I don't object to some sort of pvp-ONLY limiting mechanic in certain scenes so that people who don't want to invest the time can still log on and do something they enjoy.

    My objection is when PvE mechanics get changed (nerfed) due to PvP. This should absolutely not happen. Nerfing something's effectiveness against monsters because of how players use that skill against each other is a quick way to end up with an imbalanced, hot mess on th PvE front.
     
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  14. Pounce

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    My opinion was to apply after pvp got fixed.
    My suggestion would be to have an systhem that equalizes skills to an degree for pvp that there is maybe 1 or 2 % differentce between the skill/damage between an lvl 80 and 100

    If you start to do that up from lvl 60 (and "flattening" of the curves ending in an plateu at 100) grinding has still, but very little effect (or max out skills for pvp at 60)

    Regarding gear there i think gear should have impact, I see choosing the right gear as an tactical player skill, not an toon skill.

    But all that does not really help as long we do not have an faction and "karma" systhem, you need to reign in the "But i play an psychotic killer" numbnutz (reason i played EvE but would never play pvp in Sota is exactly that, Sota is griefer heaven, in EvE earning notority made sure the player base had little trouble in explaining how exactly they feel about RPK, in Sota not possible, and very hard to fix the way things are. Plus how to you build the equivalent to an Q ship in Sota???)
     
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  15. Pounce

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    Game mechanics for pvp and pve should be fundamental different.
    There is simple no way to make them "the same" and still keep the fun in PvE

    The tricky part is to make it so that grinding still has an small but noticable effect in PvP, up to an degree, up to an certain level, simple to keep people from making trolling accounts/chars (some people are still surprised how much money other people spend to create griefing accounts)

    So an good player should still need half an year of above casual play to reach the peak of performance, toon wise, because Sota is still an rpg based game, and not an arena hack'n'Slash

    People who want to "jump in and do some pvp" after a few weeks in Sota have plenty of games on the net for arena style, no need really for them to play Sota

    Making PvP RL skills based should depend on tactics, not twitchy fingers because lagg is different for people, and a twitchy fingers systhem means there that the person with less lag has an not skill based advantage
     
  16. Bambino

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    @kaeshiva: You always got me posting walls of text! =P
    Denying the success of several MMOs with skill caps, and the impact of skills beyond 100 is betraying. Besides, we both know I was talking about PvP. I think you should be able to kill monsters to you hearts intent, hit 150+, and become more effective at it. And, yes, I understand there is a brick wall, but getting there takes months of time and dedication.
    There are several players that could do this all day. For some, it's the only real challenge in the game. Even if it didn't involve exchanging ransom money. And, it not just running around. Besides the new PvP areas such as Obsidian Trials, players can sanction a variety of PvP events.
    I've found myself doing this as well. Acquiring stuff from killing mobs isn't so bad. There are many aspects of it that I do enjoy.
    Again, gaining experience points is not the primary retaining point in any MMO. I'm sure many will agree with you, but mindlessly killing monsters to watch your experience pool can only go so far. There are a maraud of player events going on most the time; not just dance parties. You can go hang out at your guild crafting pavilion, train new recruits, play in a band, watch a play, role-play, listen to music via radio, become a DJ, build a museum, write a book, create a quest, host a competitive event, mayor a thriving market town, run a guild, collect resources, run quest, help new players, and hang out with friends while doing all the above; plus more. That's just some of the stuff I enjoy.
    Tbh, I haven't even gotten to do much of the RPG stuff. Any of my productive time in-game has gone toward cheezing The Rise/Monkey Room/Upper Tears for XP. I wanted to wait on some questing polish before I decided to even try questing.
    Yes, that's a solid "Yes," and we both know that I am talking about PvP.
    I can't make a decision for anyone. We are all adults here. There are many players that equivalate grinding XP for hours on end to being good at PvP. However, above all, in any game, player skill should be the key component in PvP.
    Bad analogy. The human body has it's limits and everyone is different. Sure, anabolic steroids can help, but that's besides the point. This is not real life, this is a game. I shouldn't have to live my life in the game grinding away, for almost a year, before I am able to compete with the people 2-3 shotting me now.
    It should be applied to every PvP formula across the board. Not just in specific scenes. It would be hard to find decent PvP if only particular areas are zoned off.
    This is something we 100% agree on.
     
  17. Pounce

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    Most mmo have hard skill caps yes.
    To be honest though, most mmo release at regular intervals add ons that raise said skillcap.... so they do not really have them.
    So there is that
    I think the quality of an mmo can not be (in the long term) about the grind, but about what else there is to do, the grind or growing ones char is fun but of limited kind.

    Istaria was about dynamic (plague) change, and that had much for it (sadly they went under due to reasons outside the game)
     
  18. Vero

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    What if... we have pvp zones with the cap but also... no crits (again, only in capped pvp zones)

    ok time to shoot me now :p

    but what if? talking about flattening, no crits will flatten the heck out of everything. the powercurve then is even less right? (just thinking off the top of my head on a mondaymorning here)

    i know my fellow avatars: this idea only at capped pvp areas :p

    just a tought
     
  19. kaeshiva

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    The thing about the current state of PvP - for me personally, anyway - I mean, I'm not low level. I don't build/gear/optimize for PvP, (as its something I've found in this game happens pretty rarely unless you actively seek it out; instead I gear my character toward what I spend 99% of my time doing - killing things, taking their stuff to further crafting/deco goals ).

    But even as someone who has spent nearly two years obtaining XP and putting it into skills, if I go into a PvP zone, I'll likely get my butt handed to me. Why? Because adventure level and gear only do so much for you. As @Bambino LudoVate has pointed out, there should be (and is) a skill component. I'd probably say at the moment "level" - or, total accumulated exp - certainly does play a factor, but once you're over level 90-95 the weight of that factor is pretty minimal due to the curve - deck/gear setup and player ability to effectively buttonmash are far, far more relevant.

    If I had to estimate it, I'd say that assuming you had a high enough level to cover the essential passives/defensive skills, while levelling your main offense to a reasonable amount, say adv lvl 90-95ish, I'd probably say the split is something like 15% level, 35% gear/deck setup and 50% skill and strategy. What I'm hearing here is we want to remove any benefit from having levelled up from the equation, but the reality is I don't think it matters as much as people think. The reason you are getting 2-3 shotted is because you have people who have extremely optimized gear/decks who are able to pick their opportunity, use their skillful hitting of keys, and get you. Levelling up will help a BIT, but other than the marginal hp/focus increase from level, and xp for making some skills a few % stronger, the power curve keeps this from being a really huge deal.

    For someone like me - not a veteran PvPer, not using an optimised pvp deck etc, - personally, I need that edge my level gets me to even compete. And honestly, I think for the time I've put into the game, I have earned the right to have this small bonus. That's just my personal opinion - and I appreciate not one globally accepted and that I will never convince someone who is here primarily to pvp that time investment in the game should have value. They don't want to put in the time, they want to PvP on even footing right now. But I think the fact that you can work on self improvement, levelling up, and get stronger is what separates Sota from your typical FPS game where you pick up a machine gun and go.

    The fact remains that a pvp-optimized character who has a TENTH of my total XP allocation can easily wipe the floor with me, because they are built for it and know what they are doing. My only recourse is to train longer and harder to try and give myself a little edge, and I'd hate to see that capability removed entirely. Its already pretty minimal and certainly easily negated by someone with 'skill'. Without the ability to somehow make up for my slower reaction time (I'm old, ok?) there'd be no point whatsoever in me ever stepping foot in a PvP zone - I'd get steamrolled every time on "even" footing with professional pvp-types. And there's no fun whatsoever in that. So despite my "high level" I avoid PvP like the plague - further minimizing the benefit of my time investment is certainly not going to incentivize me to go try PvP - quite the opposite.

    Just offering a different perspective on it. If the end goal is to get more people involved, then PvP needs to appeal to more types of players - NOT just the people who are 100% all about PvP and everything else is just a stepping stone. At the moment, the system seems to only appeal to these types and if the goal is to improve the experience for these types, then yes, by all means, cap everything - the rest of us will continue to avoid pvp entirely. If you want other people to occasionally dabble / step into those hostile waters - the first step of nerfing my character down so I can be killed more easily is not a good way to get me in there.

    If anything though, this kinda raises the possibility of just making a level 80 pvp alt if everything's gonna be scaled.
     
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  20. Bambino

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    Quit pushing the notion that skill level impact from 100-140 is a minuscule 5%. This is how false information gets spread and it’s a lie. See what @Stundorn posted above.

    Btw, Stundorn; I leveled Chaos on another player.

    And, at what imagery moment did I say that I devalued time investment completely and say that PvP should function like an FPS? You keeping saying these things. More lies. Did you even read the OP before you responded?

    Oh, shucks. They got me alright. Mashing buttons to spam their level 140 skills. Such skill & finess.

    There is much to be said about several players calling for a hard skill cap across the board. However, I thought I was at least touting in your corner. I am only calling for changes in PvP.

    It took a bit to get that out of you. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. We all do. But, there is a reason why PvP is in the state that it is in. Elderly and uncoordinated players were already accounted for when nearly all benefit to stacking was removed.

    When you talk Adventure Level, you are extremely out of context. AFAIK, the only thing it does in PvP is raise you HP/FP. It's a plus, but not the underlying issue. The issue is the disparity between any given skill at 100 vs the same skill at 140. Again, claiming a mere 5% is a ridiculous lie.

    So, you have jumped from having an issue with leveling out the playing field to impact PvE (which it was apparent that the OP was not directed at PvE), to it impacting your rare PvP experience. Then I get called selfish?

    Yes, there are fantastic PvPers, and they may have a "pvp-optimized character who has a TENTH of [an opponents] total XP allocation[, and] can easily wipe the floor with" you, me, and many other people, but that is besides the point, and can be left for another conversation. We are talking about the actual impact of building your skills up to massive levels, the amount of time/experience it takes to do so, and the disparity between high level skills and ultra high level skills. If we can focus on that, then we may have a lot more to agree on.
    In PvP, grinding harder should not equivalate to becoming better at the game. Keep telling yourself that, but it's not your only recourse. Since you want an edge in PvP, and are already extremely high level but rarely PvP, I'd consider sparring against other players. Focus on yourself as a player instead of focusing on grinding away at your avatar skills.

    Again, you got it wrong. At the moment, if you grind for hours on end, it already appeals to your playstyle yet you are not out there pvping. You are pushing players like me out of the game. Yet you still get to enjoy the game because it has been catered to players like you for so long.

    If the end goal is to get more people involved, then PvP cannot just appeal to players that grind all the time. It's impossible to balance. It's already hard enough to compensate for maraud of other factors. Letting PvP stagnate because players that don't PvP much need the extra edge is the most illogical argument I've heard concerning this issue.

    Yes, it would. Depending how it is setup, you would have to make critical choices if you were capped at 80. You would still be able to level down every tree, but then you would hinder the potency of other skills. Still classless, and a much better way to implement a classless system.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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