Character Conversations

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Freeman, Apr 1, 2013.

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  1. Freeman

    Freeman Avatar

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    Apparently it's a debate according to the Hangout whether or not to have to type in words for conversation.

    There should be no debate. Do that.

    If you need to compromise check out how Wasteland 2 is doing it, and have there be a mix of key words and open typing. In WL2, they auto feed them into a word bank, but it could be possible to have the player do their own dictionary of words, and build up so that things like Name, Job, Health, Bye can be asked with a click.
     
  2. High Baron Asguard

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    there are a couple of issues with that though
    Police quest\hero's quest annoyed the hell out of me because if you didn't phrase it correctly it didn't work so it was "guess the verb"

    also typing while in combat is a pain in the neck, tried that with diablo 3 and its unworkable so my father in law and I ended up moving to using Skype so that we could talk while fighting
     
  3. Freeman

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    If you played the previous Ultima's there really wasn't a lot of 'guess the verb'. Someone would give you a noun / topic to ask about and you just needed to say that one word. The person would then talk on that topic.

    So if you needed to find out about a red dress, it's because someone said "I saw a woman in a red dress". Woman would get some info, red dress would get some info. And if it's a mystery, digging into it should be 'figure out what unlocks the information.'

    When it comes to combat, you're not going to stop to have a conversation with an NPC in the middle of combat anyway. If you're talking about with other players, then you'll need something like Skype for the fast stuff anyway. It would be better than almost any interface they can give you. But full text for those who don't want Skype, would at least be something.
     
  4. High Baron Asguard

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    that's a very simplistic example though
    If you go FULL enter the text then you aren't just going to have to remember "ask about pearls" but EVERYTHING

    Someone in another thread suggested an option which would work which is talk trees with a "other" option where you can then ask about the pearls
     
  5. Freeman

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    Yeah... I don't think anyone's thinking going full Zork on it, just key words.
     
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I have no problem with this. Ultimas were like this and it worked fine. As for remembering, this is why we take notes. Nobody is suggesting having a full AI for conversations. That'd just be a nuissance for everyone involved and only really interesting for AI enthusiasts. It would be kept to just key words.

    If it was all done in conversation trees then that would be much less interesting. For a conversation it's basically the equivelent of having that guy at the front gate with an ! over his head.
     
  7. Haddy G

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    I like both to be honest. I really suck at texting so if this game ever comes out on the tablet I just want to click the response.
     
  8. High Baron Asguard

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    There is another issue with this, the keywords have to be simplistic enough that you can spell them and not everyone is going to be fully literate either because of disability like dyslexia or because they are ESL. Should someone miss out on content because they wrote a name down wrong?
     
  9. Owain

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    Who knew gaming could be so hard...
     
  10. Mugly Wumple

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    Since it is likely that people will be referencing their journal anyway, click on words from the journal to enter them into the conversation field.
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I had a similiar thought to that Mugly. Something along the lines of key words being stored in a list you could access and use with a click. It wouldn't tell you where to use them, only that they would become available as you encounter them.

    I didn't think it sounded very practical at the time I thought of it but I'm starting to warm up to the idea.
     
  12. Mugly Wumple

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    I picture a journal window in the corner and as the mouse moves over each word it is highlighted. No clues, no bright keywords. You could build up a sentences if you wanted or just poke at your trigger word and be done with it. Since the conversation field is hot you could probably alternately type and click.
     
  13. Freeman

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    @Mugly Wumple so which words go into the window? That's the million dollar question isn't it?

    Because lets take an example from Ultima V. Which did the key word system expertly.

    There was a woman who cleaned rooms in an inn and you found out from some one else (who I think was even in another town) you were supposed to ask her about something. It's been a long time, so lets just say it was about a noble who stayed there.

    With a word list, when does 'noble' appear on the list for this woman? Once you talk to the other NPC who tells you about it? Does that mean another player can't tell you about it? Do you have to get the other NPC to open that dialog up? It can't always be there, or it would be worse than typing having to hunt through a list of every word that could ever be used in conversation.

    And if we do decide to have the other NPC be what opens it up on the list, then it is, in and of itself, a clue and a journal. Unless it shows up for everyone, then it's still a reminder (problem) and eventually makes everyone's list of available words so long you might as well just type them in rather than search for them.

    So, why not just make that an option for 'other' that you would have to type in. Because now you're building two different conversation systems. Not on a technical stand point (though a little...) but on a quest stand point. Can the main quest be unfinishable if you don't use the typing? I'm betting there would be some rage if a choke point was put in that way, because it's not fair to train the players to use one mechanic and then for the sake of ? have them need to use a completely different mechanic once to advance plot.

    So instead you get the 'way points' equivalent of conversations. Click on NPC to talk, make sure you click each of the dialog options to unlock all other dialog options on other NPC's... rinse, repeat.

    For all the talk of people wanting active defense in combat, journal free questing, no glowing explanation points above NPC's.... this seems like a step in the wrong direction.

    But ultimately, the real selling point for me is that entering dialog has always given me the feeling of being the one conversing, rather than the writers conversing for me... or for those not interested in the wall of text above...

    <b>tl,dr;</b> There is a different feel to game play when you think "What do I get to say?" vs. "What am I allowed to say?"
     
  14. Mugly Wumple

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    I'm assuming an auto-journal, where each meaningful NPC conversation is logged. Open a conversation with someone and a text entry field appears. You can type in it if you want, or you can pop up your journal, click on a word (any word) and it gets placed into the text entry field.

    Personally, I never liked conversation trees.
     
  15. Mugly Wumple

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    Wanna get fancy with the journal? Add "Sort By..." buttons to sort chronologically, by character name, by location. Also a "Find Text" button.
     
  16. Adaram

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    I am always a fan of options. Maybe a setup flag with 2 options:

    1. Allows people that want to "type their own answers"
    2. Provides a set number of pre-typed options to choose from

    I suspect that #2 is the way they are headed, and if that is the case, then it <b>feels</b> like it would be easier to add #1, but I am not a game designer/programmer.
     
  17. Freeman

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    So you're talking more about "If you click a word in the conversation\personal journal it auto fills in the text box?" Yeah... that's a good idea. I could get behind that pretty easy.

    And doing so adds to a personal dictionary? Again, I could get behind that... less... but it's still something that I feel is me, and not the game. Not entirely sure what makes me wince on that, probably just the old school thing I don't want to see diluted.

    But if someone is saying over on the left of dialog there's a list of words provided by the game? Not so much.
     
  18. LordEnglish

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    I like the full on "other" option as mentioned above, which lets you ask the NPCs anything.

    But for the easy-moders, you could have it so it's not 100% blind about a text entry. (I'm going with U7 type conversation cues here, but these could easily be full sentences instead.)

    1. Name, 2. Job, 3. Farm, 4. Trade, 5. Locked Option, 6. Locked Option

    You select 5 or 6, and it gives you a text entry box, where you enter "weather". If weather is a locked topic, it opens:

    1. Name, 2. Job, 3. Farm, 4. Trade, 5. Weather, 6. Locked Option

    If weather isn't an option it stays a locked option, and you can guess again if you want.

    Plus side; it's good for the more casual gamers.

    Down side; no Easter Eggs. You could waste hours trying to unlock an option which isn't available yet due to quest progression. (though I suppose you could have it only show "Locked Options" which you <em>could</em> unlock at the point of talking to the NPC.
     
  19. Mugly Wumple

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    I'm not sure where the personal dictionary comes in or how useful it is. Once you've talked to the Red Lady about her pearls it's unlikely that you'll need those words again.

    Again, I'm trying to avoid choosing canned responses from a tree. Since the current conversation is also logged then it's a simple matter of clicking on the keywords to progress the conversation.

    Here's a problem. If you're following the current conversation in Journal, then you're not seeing the keywords from a previous conversation. For instance, Jasper in Seamy Village says talk about pearls to the Red Lady in Civic City. How do you reference Jasper's old conversation while reading Red Lady's current one? A "Last Position" toggle?

    Mrrfrrrmhrh, more buttons bad. Clean interface good. Don't want this thing looking like a jetliner's cockpit.
     
  20. Freeman

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    My understanding is there isn't going to be a traditional journal. So, there's that right off the bat.

    As for the usefulness of the personal dictionary, it would be more something along the lines of letting you do name/job/health/bye and other common phrases. Mostly just a nod towards tablet users. Even like your top 10 words would be handy for them. But again, I have no intention of trying to play this on a tablet, so it would just seem like watering things down to me personally.

    "If you?re following the current conversation in Journal, then you?re not seeing the keywords from a previous conversation."

    Which is why I chose that example.

    You have two basic conversation options: Click and Select or Type. Once you make "click and select" the default option, you end up with the problems I've stated above. Telegraphed plot points, click everything dialog, and forced gates through NPC's only. If you're going to let it be a parser that lets you enter words, then just do that and be done, don't complicate it unless necessary.
     
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