Character Conversations

Only place I've seen a conversation dictionary is the Pokemon games, in that case mainly to deal with the fact that its hard to enter text on a handheld gaming device.

I would support the idea in SotA if they can get it to work well, maybe integrated in the journal like you're saying.

 

To me, personally, I believe there should be a hybrid. There can be menu select for the normal and obvious things you might ask about. If you go talk to a Leatherworker, there should be the usual easy to go through clicks that handle transactions.

Then there might be a menu option for every NPC, something like "Tell me about yourself". After all, every person has a story, so why not every NPC?

Then there might be a menu option for "What's new?" where the NPC might relate some going-on around them, or personal interests, or local gossip. But at the same time, if you have a 'Part of Quest' conversation, it can be easy lead in to that conversation.

And then you could have a box to click to type in. You could type a couple words or a whole sentence. It is a fairly simple AI that can search for key words that pertain to something that NPC might know about.

But lastly, i think there should be a 'Remind Me' feature. It has already been discussed that there will be in-game journals. What if you could go to your in-game journal and set a reminder to ask a certain NPC a certain tag.

EX:

Dario Cecchini in Skara Brae suggests suggests that if you want to know about how hot dogs are made you should ask Oscar Mayer in Cove about his wiener. You could then go to your Journal, add a tag
[Remember to Talk to] would be a option in the Journal
[Oscar Mayer in Cove] auto-fills from your source of unlocked NPCs
"Tell me about your wiener." what you type into your Journal.

Then when you happen across Oscar Mayer, a menu option that auto-populates in his conversation box is "Tell me about your wiener".

It's just an idea I had. While the last part may be my idea, it shouldn't downplay my opinion that there be a hybridized conversation system.

 

I guess what's the difference between building an interface for a button to get "What's new?" or just typing "News"?

My understanding of their idea on Journals is that it would be more old school (read: passive) and not something that injects itself into the interface at all in order to make the player more involved in the game.

Because take your example of remember to talk to... but lets put it back to "woman in a red dress". You get to town, and there are three of them. Now either, the coders have to add a bunch of code to make sure that all 3 get the dialog option, and no one else to avoid giant dialog trees for everyone, or they only attach it to the correct woman in red, and give away part of what could be a mystery.

Is there some advantage I'm missing where clicking buttons that are presented is some how a benefit? Don't just describe how it's done... why is it that your game is better having it insert dialog options and buttons for you, rather than just having a dialog entered by you?

 

The difference is the typing. Plenty of people are mouse oriented and are not that good with a keyboard. I think if it you can incorporate more than one type of entry without complicating the interface, you're better off. Granted, you don't want to lead people by the nose, but convenience has its worth.

 

I don't mind the hand-holding of essentially auto-filling a quest journal.

When in town xxx, you open and get a list of what you know about that town NPCs you know, people you were supposed to talk to for some quest and what you were supposed to ask about. I realize that we all had notebooks to keep track of this back in the day...but there's no real reason this can't be done in game automatically.

I dont think it's any more immersive to manually keep an out of game notebook than to have an in game one auto-populate with information.

Just get rid of the big, glowing punctuation over the heads of NPCs.

 

It's not that there is no value to convenience, but there's a line when crossed it becomes a crutch.

When you say people aren't good with a keyboard? How did you type that? I'm not even suggesting there's that much tying involved.

Everyone against that system, can I ask this... have you TRIED a game that expected you to type keywords? Ultima V for example? Was it really that much of an issue?

Or are you mistaking comfort for quality?

 

Surely there is a middle ground between enforced text entry and leading a player by the nose. So how about this:
- Any conversation can be tagged for entry into your personal journal, and key sentences are stored.
- This Personal Journal exists separate from the conversation/status log.
- The Personal Journal is an in-game item that you must be carrying.
- Conversations with players and NPCs occur exactly the same way - text overhead and entry into the conversation log.
- Any word that is clicked in either the conversation log or the personal journal is entered into the text entry stream.
- Each NPC and player has a menu that will "Say" Who I am, What I do, and Where I live.

I'm fine with a keyboard, but some people aren't. You may even know some, too.
I've no problems with crutches for those that need them as long as we don't all have to use them.

 

Mugly, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page. I don't necessarily see the need to code a menu for 3 entries, when everything else would be typed. As a programmer myself, I'm a fan of making programs have as few moving parts as possible. Every piece of code is a breeding ground for bugs.

And even if it introduces no bugs, then it's still time away from other facets of the game.

.. so if it adds nothing, then skip it.

"I?m fine with a keyboard, but some people aren?t."

I think that's obvious. What I'm asking is "why?" What's the benefit to clicking a button that says "job" vs typing "job"? I'm genuinely interested, because in my own projects typing is the obvious choice, but apparently there's an argument for something else. I'd like to hear that "why". What do you as a player gain from having a dialog tree vs a place to enter your own text?

 

@Freeman nuff said.

+ add various chatbots types

that is what i'd like to see Tracy really contribute to in terms of flowing conversations...

 

Freeman asked" What?s the benefit to clicking a button that says ?job? vs typing ?job??"

There's little difference between typing "job" and clicking "job" - once. There is a huge difference when doing it a thousand times. If I may digress a bit...A two second wait for your computer to respond is maddening, but with what other device do we get so impatient about 2 seconds? We get impatient with the computer because we know that it isn't just 2 seconds, its 2 seconds over and over and over again.

I'm assuming that SotA will rely heavily on mouse input. If that is the case, then input should favor the mouse. If it relies mainly on keyboard, then it should favor the keyboard. I don't know about you, but the software that I find most annoying is that which makes me continuously move back and forth from one device to the other.

If I observe myself playing a game, it's usually leaned back, hand on mouse, other hand occupied with drink, donut, whatever. Having to use a keyboard, requires me to lean in, set something down, move my other hand off the mouse, etc...you get the idea. This may seem trivial, but it will be repeated thousands of times.

In addition, RG has mentioned multiple platforms, including tablets. If that is the case, then heavy KB use would be a nightmare for tablet users.

@Freeman also asked: What do you as a player gain from having a dialog tree vs a place to enter your own text?

All NPC dialog will be represented, at least internally, as a some sort of tree, but it doesn't need to be exposed to the player. I've never espoused using menus or the typical, "Choose one of four responses" type of input. What I've been suggesting is multiple ways of inputting text. If I have the choice of clicking on the word "sesquipedalian" or of typing it in, I'm gonna click. You may choose to type it. We can both be satisfied.

 

Keywords alone kill any deeper level of communication. What made games like Elder Scrolls so special is that it counts how you ask about something as well. NPCs would react differently depending on how you phrase things, and will only cooperate or confide in you once they think you are alright. Complex conversation trees make such a difference when it comes to immersion. I'd prefer multiple branch trees with clickable answers, and possible even a branch that leads to your noble answer, @Freeman, by simply observing the right kind of things on question options.

 

@Carolin - but options are just that. Pick 1, 2, or 3. But i want 4. Or 8. Or 16.

Don't you find the limiting of how you can reply more frustrating than simply inferring your intention behind what you're saying?

You can still have to prove yourself to NPC's as they ask questions back at you. Where you have to prove to them your noble intentions through your answers.

 

Yeah, I'm all for being able to say anything you want to NPCs. Part of the fun of UO was having a conversation with an NPC and trying to trigger a response to a totally inappropriate question, or to ask directions to somebody or something.

In one of the Hangouts, Tracy Hickman mentioned that one of RG's guiding principles is "If it looks like it can be used, you should be able to use it.". Similarly, if there is an NPC you should be able to say anything you want. At that moment RG's eyes lit up and he exclaimed that if he had any doubts about a text entry box, that just convinced him of the need for it.

 

@Freeman - I fully agree. You can think about adding trigger formulas that show someone being respectful or considerate and still keep it open, especially via option 16. I can also see the possibilities of the open 'other' option as great. I am just not a fan of simply mentioning a key word and you get all info. You could even have manner guides to teach you how to communicate with whom. @Mugly Wumple, thanks for the feedback. Can't wait to see what they come up with.

 

All I can say is, there better be a women in a red dress and she better want pearls

 

I wouldn't mind it just being like Ultima VII where you click to converse with NPCs. You still have to read what they're saying and click appropriately.

Sure, some buzzkill will post all the things to click online so people can flail through quests in a matter of seconds, but hey, that's their problem.

 

Regarding the "green/yellow" question mark/exclamation point above npcs' heads, there's a reason why it was done and is very successful. It eliminated the tedium (which it was) of trying to decipher who actually had a relevant quest to move the story along. I played UO, Everquest and then WoW. One of the biggest reasons why WoW was as successful as it was, is *because* it did the hand-holding for the user to point them in the direction of the next person that can advance the story-line or show you a side-story. If we go back to the "ask everyone what their job, name, etc" is trying to find the next person to advance the story-line or to give a new side-story quest, this game will have limited success. Why? Because that's boring and tedious. If I have to go through 10, 20, 50 people just to find the next nugget of the story, I will stop playing because that's just no fun. Because after the initial, "ooh, this is kinda neat" of the first few times, it becomes "ugh, again?" after the 100th, 1000th, ad nauseum time, doing this. If there are going to be no obvious icons denoting who can point you in the direction of the next piece of the story, then every npc, or at least most of them, need to point you in the direction of the next person to help the story move along, even if it's by "Oh. I think so-and-so is looking for something" or "I heard the blacksmith talking about such-and such". Then it will at least be hint-driven to be able to find out where to go next.

Edited for spelling & grammar.

 

@Carillon - Have you ever tried it?

I hear lots of people say it won't be fun, but I remember playing U4 & 5 and never thought... this sucks, this isn't fun, etc. I felt like I was exploring the world not just physically but socially.

But as for your concern, they almost all provided hints as to who to talk to. There is a 'name/job/health/bye' routine that everyone would have dialog for, and offer clues on what else to ask them or others. It's not "Type in the dictionary until something meaningful comes up."

It makes me sad that gaming has fallen so far that this point needs to be spelled explicitly out.

 

Absolutely I've tried it. In fact, I grew up on the Zorks, Adventures, MUDs, Monkey Islands of the gaming world. I also develop software for a living and understand the necessity for a friendly user interface and interaction between the user and the software and "the less clicks the better" and "why am I typing, I have a mouse?" Gaming has evolved (possibly to some, devolved) and my time is important to me. My ultimate goal is to get to the meat of the story and, possibly some entertaining side-quests, and anything that detracts from that lessens the experience.

 

I'd go even farther. Even with the quest icons, everyone used a bunch of add-ons to show actual locations of mobs on the map. To show that the mob they targeted was actually part of the quest. And since this still wasn't enough, you'd constantly be alt tabbed to multiple fan sites to read more about what people posted about the quest. This was basically WoW's way of letting more hard core questors figure things out and everyone else get the information they needed. Obscure quests to some extent built a community of people working to solve them. Most of what the add-ons did is now in game.

I guess I just find quests to be annoying filler in most games. If they can make something better...prove it. But I think people get quest fatigue really fast. Perhaps the quests themselves just need to me much more rare. Then they can spend more time designing it and it will have more meaning. If I have to do hundreds of quests, I just want to blitz through them.