Concern over Combat comment RG made,

In a couple of interviews RG mentioned one way combat skills will/may work is having a "bag" of pre-learned/practiced skills that are available to you in combat. My concern is he made a comment very similar to this "You wont have those always available and figure out a rotian like in WoW, but you will have a bag of skills that as you fight will come to your mind and you will be able to use them"

My concern is this, for PvP (I guess it could be a PvE issue too, maybe not as much though) is that if I am fighting some one and I am "waiting" for some skill from my "bag of skills" to pop into my mind for me to use, there will be some form of Random Number Generator, and that is HORRIBLE for PvP. I have played WAY to many games where the RNG is the deciding factor to often of whether you Crit some one or if some skill procs. Heck the last game I played the developers wanted to balance their PvP AROUND Crit hits and make those the idea of winning a PvP battle. Any time "chance" or RNG is involved more in PvP than say player skill I get concerned.

I know personally when I started played one game I was still pretty new but because I got lucky I destroyed this other player who was FAR more powerful than me because my RNG happen to land on back to back high end crits killing the guy in two shots. I was laughing so hard and the other guy was mad, I admitted it was lucky and annoying and after 5 mins of laughing I was done with that PvP because chance was the deciding factor.

So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not allow RNG or CHANCE decide when and how well my skills/crits do.

 

AFAIK, it's similar to how Diablo 3, The Secret World, Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, DC Universe Online, and some other MMOs work: you have a large number of learned skills, but can only "equip" a limited number of them at a time.

This makes knowing what you are fighting, and preparing a set of synergistic skills tailored to that opponent, an actually important tactical element of the game. It's a bit like building a deck tailored to fight a specific opponent in games like Magic: the Gathering (which is why this system is often called a "deck" skill system).

 

We should get more on combat before the KS closes, but I like the system described so far. Kinda like a wizard in d&d, you have to memorize your spells but this is true for all roles.

 

Might be too little too late to effect KS. More detail, not only on combat, but on PvP, should have been released long before now. Either they are waiting to avoid having all the PvP players pulling their pledges, or they are waiting to avoid all the PvE players pulling out, I can't decide which.

 

I dont think you have to much to worry about Owain, they would have made alot more during KS from their PVE crowd, who want to have more control over when they open themselves up to PVP.

 

I understand the OPs concern. But I want to add a bit of a counterpoint. RNG itself isn't bad. It's there to simulate the zillions of factors that cannot be controlled. But it had to be something intelligently planned for rather than feeling like it's "just luck".

e.g. my offense in football can run the ball, throw a short pass, or throw a long pass. The coach is making this play call based on the score, the time left, down and distance, etc. He's looking at the run as the best way to get 3 yards but the long pass as a low chance to get a lot of yards. As far as the coach's metagame is concerned, what actually happens in the play is RNG.

In an RPG generally a mace does more consistent damage but a sword had a wide range and a better chance to crit. This is to simulate the sword just doing a glancing blow vs hitting an artery. There are many other examples where the player will may chose a higher risk strategy, higher risk tactics, and an execution that may require more difficult skill and also be higher risk.

As long as players can make assessment based on the potential risk and have some influence over the outcome, RNG can be just fine. It adds a great deal of dimension to the game that might otherwise lead to clunky game play. If it takes the game out of the hands of the players, then it's bad.

 

@PrimeRib:

Not only make an assessment, but RNG should be kept in check enough for the players to feel like their skill is more important than blind luck. Some RNG can add a nice spice to combat, but too much makes the game feel like a lottery where the player's decision and skill just don't matter.

 

@SilentStrider Exactly, I know from a coding stand point there has to be a RNG for the "chance" aspects like chance to dodge/crit/block/evade ect... But if a RNG has any role in dictating when I can use my Skills that I have already LEARNED than that could have a HUGE impact on PvP because with RNG there is a CHANCE you could sit there fighting some one and potentially never get a skill proc while the guy you are fighting could be procing skills over and over, not super likely BUT it will happen statistically, the last MMO I played I saw things happen that were 1/1000000 several times.

I don't mind like has been stated a little RNG for things like dodge/crit/block/evade, but other than that, I can just pray the way RG has stated it doesn't happen exactly like that.

 

My concern is more about another comment made. Specifically, if "I know I'm going alone I'll put some more potions in my bag"

Wait... what did he just say?

So, if it's in the game, and it seems like I should be able to interact with it, I will.... until combat. Then I can open my backpack, look at my potion, but no... can't use it. Sorry, I need a rune to fall out of my bag to drink it.

But that rune came out first, before damage happened, so now it's gone, and screw me... right? The potion is right there, I'm right here, and I can't use it because of an arbitrary rule introduced solely to make combat 'different'.

Before I go all gloom and doom on the system... it has potential. A lot of it, but it needs some tweaks.

Obviously, potions, items, and such need to be usable at will... which means so do spells. Because if you can't, then items make mages useless.

Basically, there should be a 'base' skill that's always available for fighting, a rune you can lock in place "hard block", "heavy attack" etc. Simple, basic, but something.

But combat will generate 'opportunities' that have other skills pop up as they're drawn from the bag. This could be "mana surge" that doubles the power of spells. Or "adrenaline rush" that speeds up attacks.

It seems like arguing semantics, but an overlay that gives me opportunities to do more, rather than keeping me from my tools is the difference between fun and frustration.

 

@Freeman I agree I heard that same comment, that the chance to use a potion/heal would also be part of the "bag" and would be not be available any time I need it. How they will handle magic I don't know, we will have to wait and see.

But I sure hope that the ability to use items (potions, healing kits/bandages) is open to the player any time in combat. Or you could have bad "luck" and never get a healing rune and die in a situation that shouldn't be as hard.

To many variables of what I can do being based on "RND" aka Chance and it loses a lot of fun just due to the frustration that can be caused from the random bad luck that happens.

I like the idea of a hybrid system of having basic things like healing, or basic attacks/blocks being available always, but then our awesome more powerful attacks/spells/combos use this rune system chris describes.

 

You'll be able to control the RNG somewhat. From what I gathered, you would be free to choose the number of skills in your "deck" at a time. So lets say you know 50 skills, you can choose to only equip 10 of those skills for combat. Those ten make up your deck, and are the only usable skills in combat. When you enter combat, four of those skills will be available to use at a time. So you have 40% of your usuable skills available. If you use one that has a big cooldown, then you'll have 4 of the remaining 9 skills light up. And so on...

Now, to handle RNG, you can decide to only bring 6 skills to the fight. And that way 4 out of 6 of the skills you picked will be available at all times. You'll suffer a bit from lack of versatility, but you'll be really consistent in having the skills you want available. If you prefer to be more versatile, you can go with 20 skills equipped, and only have 4 of those available.

I completely made up the number 4 as being the number avaiable, but as we get into alpha/beta, I think that things will get worked out.

The benefit to this system is what the OP did describe, that some fights that should be easy could become hard due to RNG. I think that's a great thing! It keeps you on your toes. Especially in PvP which is alwasy about who can do the most burst damage. It's going to be more of a thinking man's game, both in preparing your deck and executing your skills the best way as they come up, rather than the mindlessly spraying DPS willy nilly of most other PVP MMOs.

 

@marthos That's not how I understand combat at all. The combat chat the other day implied they'll fade in and out from time to time so if you don't click on them. To top it off, they're forcing a minimum deck size, so the ratio of available skills I'm betting is intended to be very low.

Not to mention it does create the ? of why story wise does this make sense. If I build a load out to go adventuring with my friends and being a tank, then we suddenly need to switch to bows, why have I magically forgotten all my bow skills just because I didn't put them in my rune bag before hand?

And to put the cherry on it, there was talk that you won't even have access to all your spells as you need them. Nope. You'll know that one in a couple seconds, but not now.

I get the idea of adding a 'random' element to make combat more interesting and something you have to work at, but the truth is... Combat in reality just isn't that random. It's fast, chaotic, and if you don't know what your'e doing, it's going to hurt. But trained fighters aren't random. They're flexible to the situation, and sometimes don't have the skill to handle a trick an opponent has, but that's different. That's not "I forgot how to do a leg sweep." That's "this guy won't give me the opportunity to do my leg sweep."

Having combat feel like a natural extension of the world, and not a mini-game with no connection to the world I'm in, is kinda a tough pill to swallow.

In short, it's a great idea.... for another game. It has elements that could be brought in, that would really add something to the mix. I like the idea of armor adding slugs to your opportunities, etc.

But as the 'core' working of combat, it sounds like it's going to break immersion, frustrate me from a "I would know better" stand point, and bring very little new form of fun to the party.

I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong. I may get in the alpha and go "I take it all back." But with the info I've been given, I can't see me saying that.

 

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of having say item use (potions) and normal basic style attacks be useable at any time. But for special skills or combat attacks the system Chris put forward seems interesting and fun to try.

Remember they did say there is a reason there will be a Beta test, to test and try these things out.

 

@Freeman

I believe the system will take into account the proficiency level of the player through the talent tree.
The higher you are in the talent tree, the less random it becomes.

This is because there are talents that speeds up the cards drawn and allow more cards to be drawn etc.

The system that you prefer seems to be those generic mmo combat where there is a fixed skill buttons and switching stances on the fly. No randomness but also encourages cookie cutter playstyle, and that is boring imo and does not add to immersion.

In the real world no matter how good you are, there will be oh **** moments, there will be so many variations in a real combat that those moves you learned in a dojo cannot apply, and need to improvise.

 

The game should have skills like the 64 spells you had in a full spellbook in Ultima Online. Then it is up to you to use them in the best way you can.

There should be no luck factor whatsoever in the game except maybe a lucky crit.

 

I've been relying on 'luck' in combat for decades.. dice... look at you d20 and d6...just sitting there staring back. It adds some uniqueness to a situation ON TOP of your skill level. So you may have swung your sword and pulled of an amazing sweep or screwed the pooch badly and swung wide. It happens, even to the best.

I don't enjoy these fighting games where every swing of my sword is identical for hours and hours on end my character never falters, he just does a certain amount of damage based on my equipped weapon...BORING..

I think RG is just looking for something to eliminate (and thankfully) or at least hinder the MMO Macro'ing that ruins the experience for a lot of people. Different methods will be tried during the alpha I am sure, lets see what boils up.

I just rolled a 1, so I must end this reply..

 

@Ara/Brenton: There are two important sides to this that need to be balanced. If a game is overly luck based it becomes silly... if there is no luck, it becomes boring. The problem is people have been burned by different systems that end up too heavy in one direction and thus get a bad taste in their mouth for the other. The key is finding the right balance. There is thrill to scoring that one in a million hit. But there is also frustration that stems from someone with no skill "accidentally" beating someone who has spent days perfecting their craft.

@Freeman: I understand your point, but I think there is some actual real lore value in not being able to access your full inventory all the time. After all have you ever tried to pull something out of the bottom of a backpack while defending with a sword against an attack.... it just doesn't make sense. Limiting access to a pre-selected group of things just makes sense. Now the random element really depends. I can see an argument being made for potions as in the heat of the moment picking just the right color potion from your belt can be... well tricky I will have to see the system to say how I feel about it. But I like the idea that if you put too much in your bag, it will be harder to get the right one when you need it.

 

Freeman, that's pretty much the system I described, except I missed the minimum skill requirement part. But you load up your toon with skills and you only have a certain number of them available at any given time.

As for the story, it makes about as much sense as the cooldown system. If I can put an arrow into someone's heart, why do I have to wait 5 minutes before I can do it again?

But I think you just nailed the answer with this comment:

<i> "That?s not ?I forgot how to do a leg sweep.? That?s ?this guy won?t give me the opportunity to do my leg sweep.? </i>

Combat, as you said, is pretty frantic and chaotic. Far more than can be visibly displayed on your screen. When your leg sweep is not available, its not because your guy forgot how to do it, its because your opponent isn't giving you the opportunity. Use your imagination a little bit.

But ultimately, in games, realism needs to take a back seat to two more important drivers: fun and balance. If the combat system is fun, no matter how unrealistic, it's good game design (Mortal Combat anyone?). And balance keeps the game interesting and challenging by preventing someone from tanking, healing, ranged dpsing, crowd controlling, buffing and debuffing all at the same time.

 

My biggest concern is the combat system. All we can do is give suggestions and constructive criticism when the time comes. Some comments on the subject:

- I like the idea of multiple cards displayed at the same time. This would probably help a lot with avoiding too much randomness.

- I like the idea of having a very limited amount of basic skills in a bar on top of the pop up skills. This would work especially well with the counter skills like block, dodge, spell countering etc. Dodge and block could also be movement related basic actions that do not need to be in a bar.

- If they will not allow for any permanent skills in a bar or otherwise, the counter skills could work in a way that allows for the skill to pop up sometimes (how often depends on the skill level), when an attack is being made against you. There might be too little time to react though, so that is a potential problem.

- Spell casting in combat is a problem and I currently feel like the "card system" doesn't work very well with it. Maybe a combination of uttering power words in the right order (or just choosing your desired spell in advance if you want to simplify), and then waiting for the "Cast spell" card, could be a possible solution.

 

@Elvish: I like your second paragraph reply, good points.

P.S. How are you guys doing the @name ? Is there an easy method?

P.S.S Ugh toon....I dont like that term