Concern over Combat comment RG made,

It is based on username so if I type @Brenton it changes it into a link... I don't think it is based on display name though so to link to me I think it would be @Elvish Dragon not @Elvish Dragon [Lord] -=UDIC=- since the latter is just my display name.

 

Re. @name. It also doesn't work if the name has a space in it. So, try as you might @Mugly Wumple will not highlight.

 

@Elvish: thx!

<b>@Mugly:</b> Awww.. I'll just BOLD you...

 

hmmm, the bold didnt work...ah well, you're sol

 

@Brenton said: you're sol
That's ok. Being only 3 inches tall and warty, I hear that alot.

 

@marthos,

I think the suggested system is good if its limited to an active back-and-forth m?l?e combat situation where you're thinking on your feet. However, if you're at a long distance and using a bow to ambush someone who can't fight back because he only has a sword, then you should have a lot of luxury in what you can do because you have the time to think. The same thing for long-range magic.

If you're also able to hide successfully for a few moments using some stealth skill, you should be able to have a chance to reconfigure your deck. In that case, you also have time to gather your wits.

Basically, I think you should be able to reconfigure your deck at any time that anyone isn't actively attacking you. It should still take a little bit of time to reconfigure, so you could be interrupted in the process.

Btw, I hope people here read this topic I just put up: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=the-card-system-as-a-fighting-style-learning-moves-from-experience

I suggest the ability to take breaks and reconfigure your deck, I also suggest the ability to learn moves from your opponent in battle, copying them.

BTW, yes, fun and balance are of utmost importance. However, IMO, realism creates balance, and balance creates fun. Its all the same thing in the end.

 

Btw, I think the same limits should be on changing armor and weapons. You shouldn't be able to do this in the middle of a heated m?l?e. But provided you find time to hide long enough to change them... And changing armor should cost more time than changing weapons, obviously. Weight based, too.

 

From what I heard so far I think they think about a skill system similar to The Secret World (which is very nice, but only covers combat skills), right?

 

@Elvish Dragon [Lord] -=UDIC=- Then I'd argue that there's a delay in activation. But not a flat out "no".

@Lord Kei - No, that's not really what I'm looking for in combat. I've done the traditional MMO and it feels blah. I'm open to some new ideas, but not at the expense of immersion.

What makes all good video games good is that they trick us into forgetting that all we're doing is pushing a button... probably the same button... over and over again. When you introduce something that is obviously a game mechanic from an otherwise seemless interactive world's gameplay, that point gets driven home fast.

@marthos - Yeah, after I posted I realized, it's not that different in what was said. But the point I was trying to make is that it's not just when you use a skill, you may miss using it all together. It's not like you can draw it and save it for later.

As I said above, fun is #1 but it's made up of several ingredients, one of which is immersion. Suspending your disbelief to allow you to enter the game.

There's also some flaws in your math. If I know 50 skills, and I pick 10 of them, then I'm already down to only being able to use 20% of what I know. If only 5 of those are shown at any point, It's 10%. Not 50. Not 40.

--

So, let me just spell out again, that I think the system as a 'topper' on a more traditional system is a good idea... but not as the 'whole' system. Something where your 'karma/luck/virtue' plays into how many opportunities you get for these 'bonuses' is great. Cutting me off from what I know I can do is not.

I also wouldn't gripe to much if you tied these bonuses to weapons. So I could assign a bag to my bow, one to my greatsword and one to my sword/shield. In doing this, I'm never going to have that feeling of frustration and rage that I have a pool of archery skills that I can't use from an artificial rule just because I was intending to be a swordsman but the level didn't play out that way.

 

@Freeman - I am not arguing it should be or shouldn't be a certain way, just pointing out there is some justification for it. As for just making it a delay.. if we are being realistic, getting anything out of a backpack at all will almost certainly foul up your sword arm which will result in you getting dead very quickly... There are some things in the heat of combat that are just literally impossible. Putting down your backpack and rifling through it happens to be one of them.

Most games ignore this as a conceit to good and fun gameplay. I happen to like being able to go into my backpack in combat. But I am also willing to give the combat they created a try before trying to change their mind about it. That is what alphas are for

 

@Elvish Dragon,

I actually think the fun of being able to shuffle through your backpack in the middle of battle is overrated. What fun is it if you can have 100 healing potions in your backpack and never having to worry about dying because going to your inventory always pauses battle? That's the situation in Skyrim.

The most fun parts of Skyrim combat to me are the unnerving ones. You can be shot at by a bowman and have to look all over to see where the arrows hitting are coming from. You can do the same thing, and plan an ambush another party with your bow, then hide in the shadows as they search for your location. Also, for instance, dealing with a battle between several armed men, which happens when you have a bounty on your head. You have to decide how to engage so that you can strike a blow against one man without being thrashed by the others. Those are things that make me like Skyrim.

Planning your battle is pretty fun to me, and you always have the chance of running away, or averting combat situations entirely.

Pausing the game and healing yourself with a bottomless back of potions is unfun.

Honestly, this is why I keep on arguing realism makes things fun

On the other hand you should be able to have a couple of things handily accessible on your belt, and I wouldn't mind that mechanic.

 

@Freeman "What makes all good video games good is that they trick us into forgetting that all we?re doing is pushing a button? probably the same button? over and over again."

I would argue against this. This is what makes a game sell copies, but doesn't make it good. I think this is a big problem with the current state of 'gaming'. Oversimplification and catering to the short attention spans of the current market in order to make a quick buck then move on to the next project.

A good video game doesn't need to "mask" gameplay to keep you going, if the interaction and the story created is compelling you will enjoy it thoroughly.

 

As I've said before, I don't want to have to look at my skills or my keyboard during the fight. Chains of skills and cooldowns are fine as long as they're managed internally. If I basically just want to swing my sword, that should be the same button over and over. Give me another button only when it is another real, logical derision. So If I have a dance between swing, swing, parry, ripost (3324), this is fine because swing is always 3, defensive offswing is always 2 and finisher is always 4. I never have to think about it. I just have to have situational awareness <i>in game</i> instead of trying to figure out the UI complexity.

If swinging 2 or 3 times gives me some cooler looking swing combo, that's fine. Or if I proc some better swing, that's fine too. But it doesn't explode into a bunch of new buttons just to swing the sword.

 

@Elvish - " As for just making it a delay.. if we are being realistic, getting anything out of a backpack at all will almost certainly foul up your sword arm which will result in you getting dead very quickly? "

I'm not against that.

But if you want to take a couple steps back out of battle, let your friends hold the line so you can find and drink a potion, that should be an option.

@Brenton - It doesn't matter how it's done, at the end of the day if you're aware you're just pushing buttons, then the difference between it, and doing work, is negligible. It quickly becomes unfun.

That actually means the OPPOSITE of over simplification. It means having something engaging happening in the game, and an interface that feels intuitive. You can compensate for a weakness in one place with the other, but the best games will do both.

It's not about masking game play, but about keeping it consistent enough that it becomes intuitive and unobvious. A game like UO offered a lot of options for game play, but did it all with the mouse, and keyboard if you wanted to build in things that worked for you. The end result is, the mechanics of game play worked seamlessly in all parts of the game.

But maybe this will help with my point:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/LarsDoucet/20130402/189725/Storytelling_as_Problem_Solving_Defenders_Quest_GDC_2013_Narrative_Summit.php

 

I feel like maybe you didn't read my last sentence, and that we actually agree

 

@Brenton - I read it, I feel like I didn't make myself clear the first time since you were thinking we didn't.

 

I hope that it the ends the victor is determined by player skill, not some element that is easily exploitable or random chance. I want players to be aware of how to best utilize the game mechanics to their full advantage. I just don't want them to be able to "cheat" or "exploit" the system.

An example of this is understanding the timing of spells and that instinctual feeling of knowing which spell is appropriate to cast based on a lot of factors that you are accustomed to due to hours of field experience. A player who is an experienced PVPer will be able to easily trump newbies to PVP, this is just how a Gaussian curve works.

The players who know how to play the game the best or their role (tank/mage/assassin) will emerge victorious more often than other players due to their individual skill. This is what I look forward to seeing in this game.

 

@Ultima
The key to this is getting combat gameplay closer to a MOBA(LoL) and less like a traditional MMO (WoW), where you drastically reduce number of skills and remove the effects of progression (gear, level, etc.). GW2 was a step in this direction.

 

The combat/skill system of GW2 really killed the game for me. I don't want SotA to be so casual and plain, like GW2, in that regard.

 

I think this is the crucial core point of this thread, and I agree with it. All of the random factors together in one pile should have less effect on my gameplay experience than my choices and my skill in another pile do. If RNG is allowed too much influence, especially influence over my choices and my skill, then the game becomes a movie. And I've got enough movies.