confession

I hope, I am not just being a narcissist. I see what they've done. It is interesting. It is also, a real pain in the ass. There are so many remarkable skills. So many places to put points. A player can build almost the same build as someone else-and the result could be enormously different. All it would take would be different armor, or different tactics (tree), or playing style… And the result would be enormously different. But now, they have decided to start you small. One chickenshit icon. So, you have to grind your face off to develop an avatar… And you may find that the build you chose sucks. It could be the way you have to play-you don't want to play that way. It could be that it just doesn't work for some reason. And now, you get to start over, and over and over. What with all the crafting and the choices of armor and the ingredients to make them-all secrets. It's a mouthful. Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun to play. A real adventure. But now? All that work… Grind grind grind and it gets blown away? I am not sure that I want to work that hard for no reason. I suppose I will find out. So far, whenever I sit down to play and I think of how much work is going to go into developing a character only to have it wiped so that I can start over… AGAIN. So far, I just can't get myself to do it.

 

*Edited to remove two sarcastic sentences that I regret posting. Sorry for that, Artte.*

All that grind, grind wipe stuff -- it's testing. As in, straight up you-are-a-guinea-pig/lab-rat testing.

I think it's fun playing around with different builds and getting a chance to start over every so often, especially if you're not happy with the way it's turning out. You may think there's "no reason" for the hard work, but I think there is, and I also think it's really cool that I get to be a part of it.

If you don't wanna, just don't. There's loads of people who have bought in and are waiting until things are all hammered in to play. I think it's a really odd thing to complain about, personally.

 

Gee thanks. It's a good thing that you didn't mean to be rude. I can only imagine what you might have said if you had been unkind on purpose. If I told you that it was interesting reading what you had to say I've be lying. Apparently, you've decided I was complaining. That is interesting in so far as it is so wrong. For some reason you have decided to ridicule me. Well flame on! And here was me thinking that an honest opinion about the state of affairs was what SOTA was looking for. When all the time they really looking for you to defend their decisions. I am learning so much. I feel like Joey.

 

The obvious point you seem to be overlooking here is that the game is still in pre-alpha state. There are going to be wipes now and then right up until the game goes 'live'.. after which there will be no more wipes. Right now it is both inevitable and necessary. In that context it does seem like you are complaining about the wipes. Otherwise there is no point in bringing them up at all is there? So what exactly was the point of the original post then?

Also the tone of your response to Margaritte is quite uncalled for itself.

 

I said I wasn't trying to be rude because I honestly wasn't. If my tone seems flippant or mean, I do apologize.

You've posted here a laundry list of items that basically boils down to saying that it's no fun making a character and having it wiped over and over, in an environment where information about crafting is not readily available.

You think it's no fun. I was trying to point out that at this point in development, it's not all about having fun, or building a character you like or anything, really, except testing and helping to shape a game that is still relatively early in it's development. I do have fun, though, and so do a lot of people.

I also pointed out that some people enjoy it, and that if you're not, then maybe testing is not for you. Your "honest opinion" about the state of SotA is that testing is not fun? I'm sure this feedback is as useful to the devs as my last post was to you.

 

Understandable, testing systems as fluid and unstable as this is certainly not everyone's cup of tea.

As for "no reason" : Well, from a single person's perspective I can understand the sentiment.

However, the input you provided simply playing the game help populate the statistics the devs need to properly balance the game in further releases.​

Personally, I find the chance of having the next month being completely and radical altered from the previous quite invigorating.


Though, as stated, if that is not something appealing to you, let us do the heavy lifting for you... Come back after the final "Persistence", and enjoy the fruits of our labors.

 

You want to know what good it is to build a character only to get it wiped? I have gained experience and quite a bit of knowledge learning the deck system. I have tried several tentative builds. I have explored Novia and know what to expect in every instance. I have crafted several different suits of armor to find out what works best for me and my build. I have raced to a preferred house location, stopping by a bank to pick up a deed after a wipe.

These are just a few of the things that should be valuable to me when Episode 1 launches. I sure would hate to start learning from scratch at that time. I really am having a great time building various decks. To what end? To learn what not to do when it really counts. Probably the most valuable for me, I think, is not expecting to be able to amass enough cash to set up my character the way I want in the timespan I prefer. Knowing in advance that my biggest frustration will be collecting enough coin fast enough will soften the frustration I would have had never having played before launch.

 

For me, as a relative newcomer, Margaritte and Bowen have been two of the most interesting and helpful posters on this forum. Listening to Margaritte on the CD&B podcast was a pleasure--its clear she's having buckets of fun! And Bowen's input on all facets of the game has been specific and well considered without a hint of malice. So I think the OP is doing himself a disfavor by excluding them from information and advice that could enhance his experience.

 

The original post was completely ok. The guy just doesn't like to grind when everything is temporary. He is entitled to post his opinion and his frustration with playing the pre-alpha. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but the first reply was very sarcastic and I don't wonder that things went downhill from there.

Just a tip: if you feel you have to say "I don't mean to be rude", there is a reason for it and you are probably being rude. It's best to take a deep breath and think of a less offensive way to get your point across. I just edited this post to tone it down and wish I had taken a deep breath before tapping the Post Reply button the first time.

 

Good point and I agree with you pretty much completely.

Although, on a public forum you're not always going to like the replies you get but still are expected to act a certain way if you get a bad reply... which will definitely happen. I know of a couple forum posters in particular that always appear to be skirting rudeness but nobody should, or usually do ever take it to that next level (disclaimer - I am in no way stating that is what occurred here ) and usually everyone remains civil.

That's why I love my forum peeps here... best on the internet ... now say goodbye to this thread.

Bye bye thread.

 

I guess you're not cut out to be a "Tester" because chr wipes are all part of testing, so get used to it... This is NOT a complete game, it's under construction... You complain about "grinding", haven't you ever played games before? I don't care if you have a "leveling" system or a "skill use" system, you still have to go out and kill things to make your skills go up, if you want to call that "grinding" (whick in my opinion is derogatory) go for it... I call it "playing the game", dang don't get a Melvin over it...

It took me like a couple of hours to get all my chosen skills above 10 (cuz that's all you need to get to the next level), pressing that "chickenshit" icon 10-15 times on each of my 10 "chickenshit" icons... They were going up like crazy fast...

 

What's a Melvin? How do I get one?
Disclaimer: I'm old, slow, and stooped, so if this is some new, groovy expression I will appreciate the enlightenment.

I do agree with you on the use of the word "grinding". I've always thought it was kind of strange, because I just play the game and have fun. Grinding sounds unfun and I certainly don't grind anything unless I'm at the blacksmith table.

 

I would be utterly clueless on the term myself had I not seen Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey. I am at a loss to describe so I'll just say.. you don't want one.. but if you ever find yourself being chased by the Grim Reaper, a Melvin may just be your ticket to a temporary reprieve.

 

Margaritte = a bundle of exuberance and fun!

 

How about we focus on feedback and testing, eh?

 

So, what I get from this is that you are upset there is no way to start of with the bare bones of a certain intended build and or that there is no way to undo mistakes made when putting points into your skill trees? I'm Crease and I like to make lists. So let me make a list to address what your concerns are in order of their appearance.

1. It is confirmed that there will be a system somewhere around character creation that determines what basic skills you start out with.

2. It is confirmed that there will be a way to actually unlearn skills completely with a possible % return on the exp investment.

3. Crafting recipes aren't a secret at all. You can buy them from the crafting vendors and have them permanently in your book or you can look them up on the SoTAWiki, make them and have them permanently in your book.

4. Grind, grind grind? It's called play, test, play. Do quests. Group with others. Find a guild. Gather resources. Watch hangouts. Read feedback. Post bugs. Play Gustball. Duel or PvP with others. Explore new content. This game is not just what the devs are making it, but what you make it.

5. Wipes are necessary. It sounds like maybe testing a game in pre-alpha isn't your cup of tea. Every single thing you are disgruntled about has a solution or one confirmed in the works. You just missed the memo, I guess. Hope this helped give you some peace of mind on your concerns but if you are leaving us, I implore you to check it out again next release or so.

Cheers.

 

Artte, just admit that testing (grind+wipe, rinse and repeat) is not your cup of tea. It's easy, and leaves your honor fully intact!

You're entitled to have opinions and preferences, of course, and you don't enjoy "working" on your char if in two months everything is reset. That's fine, I love it, you hate it. We're still friends!

We will happily meet at Episode1, when wipes and resets and total rebalancing will be things of the past. Me, with a char wiped at least another three times, and you without any nuisance of how the game was developed. I think it's a win-win, no?

But don't feel too self-entitled to spread vitriol and just hope to get away with it. I've seen those email (and even worse, if you ask me), and attitude in approaching other players is everything.

 

For me, I do not play a game for the end result or destination, be it winning, reaching a certain level, getting a specific item, beating some monster, etc...
I play games for the experience of playing, the process of doing the play actions, and the adventure and journey of each moment of the game play itself.

This grindiness that is so often and disdainfully referred to as part of a leveling process in games is not something that bothers me, because I do not see it as grindiness.
I see it as adventure, experimentation, practice, learning, journeying, and play in itself.

There is something inherently satisfying in reading all the skill descriptions and choosing my path toward what I envision I will become, and then testing, experimenting, and finding out how that turns out.
It reminds me of my experience in Star Wars Galaxies (SWG), which I played when it first came out until the first expansion (aka a lot of gameplay.) Choosing skills and skill trees was a study in game mechanics, theory- crafting, and, ultimately, trial and error.

It is an important part of actual gaming to me to strategize my gameplay experience and dive in and test those strategies out. Even in a non use-based skill system, you still choose skills and then employ them in gameplay and probably change your mind, change the skills, experiment more, and rinse/repeat until you find some perfect storm of skills and play style and gear that suits your desired gameplay experience.

One of the things I have always loved about use-based skill systems is that you end up with a character that reflects the choices and actions you as a player make and take in a game. Hence, the character more accurately can reflect your play style and your character's nature. And that is immersion, to me vs. clicking points on a desired skill and suddenly knowing, possessing, and mastering it.

Keep in mind that it has been stated (by Technical Director, Chris Spears) that the use-based skill system introduced in Release 21 is the first crack at this new feature of the game, and iterations of the system will be developed, tested, and rolled out for us to experiment and play with.
Chances are, as this system evolves, some of the earlier, lower tier skills will be easier to level up, making it easier to access higher tier skills that will more accurately mesh with our desired game-play style.
And chances are, what you are playing now will not be what we play with in the next x releases or the final version of the game.

Yes, there will be wipes. You did sign up for Pre-Alpha access, after all!
I see the wipes as a wonderful chance to start the journey again, to make new choices, discover new paths and destinations, and relive some of the things that makes our brains want to play games in the first place: the experience of novelty, meeting challenges, solving problems, overcoming hurdles, using our imagination, and experiencing a sense of achievement.

I hope you will stick around and continue to play Shroud of the Avatar and perhaps think about why you play video games, what you want out of SotA, and write up a constructive post in the feedback forum about the use-based skill system with suggestions for ways to improve it.

Thanks for your awesome post! Food for thought is grist for the mill!

tldr: In gaming, ironically, it's the journey, not the destination that is rewarding.

 

I won't quote what has been said before because alot has been said already. My post does not point a finger at anyone, it is just an observation based on experience.

Being a person who has been playing MMORPGs since April of 1999, I can tell you that in all of them there is a ~3 month chuck I like to call it. I.E. 3 months after release, there is a serious drop off of players. This is fairly consistent between Sub and F2P type models. When people look at a MMORPG like a Single Player game, they often get bored quickly and like other Single Player games purchased, it gets played through a few times (if that) then tossed back onto the shelf when a new game is purchased. I will say I played EQ in Beta and stayed with it until 2009, About 10 years or so. During that time I tried many other games but I was in a good guild in EQ and as a result of the tight knit social goodness we had toward one another, the game, as difficult as it was, was just awesome. We also had a division in Asherons Call that lasted for years.

I also played/play LOTRO in a group that moved very very slowly. We RPed our adventures in game and on the Forums. In 2 years we still hadn't gotten through the initial content. And I simply love this group.

Also in 2009, I got involved in the Emulated EQ server P1999. Many of my old guildmates made a guild there and I played with them there as well.

If you look at a MMORPG for it's mechanics. For it's game elements, on their own, most of them pale in comparison to a good, SP game. (Morrowind = Wicked Sauce!) I would think testing a Single Player game might get tedious and repetitive. (Probably why I'm not a game tester by trade) Kickstarters in conjunction with Semi-persistent Alpha Access is relatively a new thing. (Within the last few years) In several of them, I did get bored and by release, I did not really have the urge to play the game. Some of that might be that I did not have a very good guild or core group to hang around with. Some might be the game itself was to repetitive and monotonous for my taste. For me, I do tend to get bored in a MMORPG when I do not get the social and RP aspects I need to keep me logging in day after day. In games where I have had this, I've spent years in them. SotA has potential to really be a good game but If I looked at it in the perspective of a Single Player game...it might get shelved after a couple play-throughs due to it's testing phase grindiness.

For me, each day I log on is potential to make a new friend or have interaction with people I have never met in game before as I go and test out parts of the game that interest me. I doubt I've played as much as most but this is due to my other RL responsibilities. My guild is very small. Our POT is very small but there seems to be such a feeling of comradery here: In the game, in the forums and in the various VoIPs/IRCs, I feel as if I'm part of their communities as well.