Costs to place City, Keep, or Castles in POTs

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Chris, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Boris Mondragon

    Boris Mondragon Avatar

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    Docking at your port soon
    Brother; Imagine you get off the ferry in Aerie and head up north to see a skull and bones pirate sign representing what the Dragomir Mori municipality stands for. Yarrrr, shiver me timbers. “Grins”. R/Boris/El Pirata/Black Sails Forever.
     
  2. Aventine

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    While a nice gesture, its still only throwing a small bone to POT owners. POT features remain underdeveloped. After dropping the 'customized town' approach for which POTs were sold and that might have made them more special, the team really could have done better by POT owners. Chris said it was unfair to place such a large cost burden on POT owners. Indeed we remain triple taxed. We pay to get the POT, pay to get the deeds, and pay for taxes on the placed lots. While tax breaks are great, $1,100,000 gold per year for castle lot still doesnt feel like a great deal, just less of a gold sink, especially given the underdevelopment of POT features otherwise.
     
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  3. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    If such an change is „easy“ possible and the usable m² are not representing the really existing m² anymore…maybe there should be an even bigger change? E.g. lot-costs could be change to be one digit values as building grounds to make for example calculations of remaining ground easier.
    Row = 1 building ground
    Village = 2 building grounds
    Town + city = 3 building grounds
    Keep + caste = 4 building grounds

    And in a similar way the current m² of PoTs would be changed to represent building ground for lots.
    E.g. holdfast = max of 45 building grounds, Hamlet = max of 70 building grounds,…

    Yeah, if we are able to create dungeons by putting together small pieces of hallways why not something similar for PoTs? E.g. the current PoT-scenes could be divided into parcels of e.g. 25mx25m. Maybe to keep the visuals to bordering parcels they have to be separated into different types like coast-parcel, river-parcel, lake-parcel, mountain-parcel, grassland-parcel,… (I guess a side-eye to crowfall might be interesting.)
    You still chose the general biome for your PoT but you can change each of the parcels to another one of the same type. E.g. if you chose the “Forest 01” template you can change the coastal parcel to a stone dock version and get the current “Forest 01c” template.
    Additionaly to store versions there might be even some just ingame available versions that need alot of work/resources to create. E.g. creating a haunted forest parcel you need thousands of trunks, corpse wax, slime ooze and spider silk and is designed as some kind of quest for groups of avatars.
     
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  4. Storm Silverhand

    Storm Silverhand Avatar

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    thx Chris , i have several on Oceania who will enjoy putting up the larger homes
    Storm
    Mayor Oceania
     
  5. Ragnarr Lodbrok

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    @Chris How about you guys come up with a Viking Keep and Viking Castle? So I can encourage players to place one in my ALL Viking player owned town of Skalabrekka. ;);););)
     
  6. majoria70

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    Also since larger lots got made to represent less space why not town as well. That thing is pretty huge to try to place. I had to take down massive amounts of stuff to place one today, well a slight exaggeration but not by too much ;). Well it doesn't hurt to ask right? ;) And don't get me wrong I'm extremely happy with the extra space in Wizards Rest. We were tapped out ;)
     
  7. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck Avatar

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    It's not really the lot size that really matters. For POTs that want to establish markets it's about the total number of vendors.

    What about increasing the vendors to 2 for a row lot?

    (or doubling the amount of items each vendor can sell?)
     
  8. AoiBlue

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    In order to better prevent performance issues, I think PoTs should be divided into chunks, each with their own limits, as well as the total town limit.

    Additionally, row lots should be placed in "sets" of either 4 or 8 and have templates with various arangements, with or without back allies between the front and back row.
     
  9. Bom

    Bom Avatar

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    Won't this result in less POT owners upgrading their POTs to get more space instead, resulting in less income for Portalarium? Won't it result in many more empty lots for the small game population if every POT owner across the game is suddenly getting more space to place more lots?

    Everyone likes gifts, so you can always expect a bunch of positive feedback whenever you give out gifts, but I think the consequences should be considered more. You can't make a game better by just giving things away, arguably that usually makes a game worse because players don't have to earn what they desire.
     
  10. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Why does that even matter? For example Wizards Rest cost over almost 2500 real dollars to buy. This and the deco limit increase are not gifts but over-sights imo. Something that cost a massive amount of real money you should be able to do great things with it . The amount of decorating that can be done in fairly full towns is/was very minimal for the amount of space. For every bit of space that opens up for town owners that gives more players who can occupy those towns they have chosen. Empty towns are empty but there is always a chance that the popularity of the game increases from getting popular features. Right now we need a lot of popular features along with current systems getting completed and missing components added and updated to make them better. Right now we have had a lower population but with lots of changes I am starting to hear very good things from new players I meet. Any town that is empty I am sorry for this but if the games gets popular then those towns can capture the players who need homes.

    If we focus on one aspect like empty towns what will that buy us? Why are some towns empty verses others not? That is something to think of and yes low population contributes to that. I do everything for the residents of the town well and because I like to of course but still some will move on but others then come. If players are having an enjoyable experience that is what will get more players resulting in more revenue. One player just brought in two new friends. They love the game. So quality of life changes are huge and finally I say. Sorry didn't mean to go on and on but there you have it ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  11. Bom

    Bom Avatar

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    Why does it even matter if Portalarium's income is reduced on POTs and there are thousands of more empty housing lots in the game? Are you serious? If you are, you must be avoiding the uncomfortable facts in favor of how this benefits you personally, which is perfectly normal and expected.

    However, the reality is that Shroud of the Avatar has always had far too many POTs and empty housing lots for the game population which results in the game looking very dead to everyone, both new players and old alike. People don't like playing games that appear to be dead. The appearance of a dead game alone can kill a game off in a chain reaction since it is very difficult to get people to play a game when it appears nobody else wants to play either. Adding the space for thousands of more housing lots to hundreds of already empty POTs will obviously make POT owners happy since they benefit personally, but it is only going to make Shroud of the Avatar look even more empty and dead than ever before. Sure, players are going to choose to live in the best towns, but if the best towns are larger, accommodating even more of the small population, then other towns are going to be even emptier than before as less players will choose to live in other towns. Because the game population cannot support the current housing lots, adding more space for housing lots is only going to result in Shroud of the Avatar looking even more dead. That's not a good thing overall, not at all!

    Further, and perhaps even worse, those POT owners that want more space in their POTs, enough to pay for it, are going to be far less likely to after being given more space for free and Portilarium's income is going to be reduced on POT upgrades. That's not good either!

    Obviously, most POT owners that don't take the time to consider the overall repercussions of these changes are going to rave about personally benefiting from receiving more housing lot space for free, but it's not good for the current state of Shroud of the Avatar nor Portalarium.
     
  12. Drake Aedus

    Drake Aedus Avatar

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    Because obviously the only thing keeping Portalarium solvent was the 300-ish POT owners upgrading their towns every month?
     
  13. redfish

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    POT governors dont have to place lots for all the space they're entitled to, so the fact that they just have more available space doesn't automatically make towns look emptier.

    However, being able to put in more public spaces because you don't have to make trade-offs between putting in those public spaces and putting in resident lots does make the POTs better, more interesting and attractive, which is good for everyone. Good for residents of POTs, good for visitors, good people who just casually stop in.

    The revenue issue is something for Portalarium accountants to pay attention to and make tradeoff decisions about; I have no idea how important upgrades were as a revenue source. I do think long term we have to hope the game revenue comes from an expanded player base.
     
  14. Fionwyn Wyldemane

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    There seems to be a misconception that PoT owners are getting more space for free. The amount of space isn't changing or increasing. A PoT Crossroads Village remains at 33,600. It's the space occupied by larger lots that has changed.

    I cannot put more lots on my PoT than is allowed by the size. But because the sq footage taken up by City, Keep and Castle deeds has been reduced, I can put a few more of those in "if I choose" because now they take up less space.

    You can go to this calculator to see the old sq footage taken up by larger lots as well as the overall size of PoTs by sq ft (or whatever the SQ stands for):

    http://www.sotahousing.com/SotA_Player_Town_Calculator.html

    Now compare to the changes:
    City 2400 --> 1800
    Keep 4800 --> 2400
    Castle 9600 --> 3000

    ---> The only real benefit to a PoT owner that is more of the larger lots can be placed if needed or wanted. Nice for the long term health of the game since people can upgrade almost all deeds to the larger sizes and that means revenue for Portalarium.

    Bottom line - it simply isn't true that PoT owners have somehow gotten something "for free" or that this change has huge negative repercussions to the game.

    PoTs are empty because the owner isn't playing, the owner isn't advertising, the players live elsewhere, players don't care to live in a PoT, the player base is still growing, etc. There are a whole host of reasons towns are empty, but this change is not one of those reasons. IMHO...and I'm sticking to it :p
     
  15. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    First please change title to somthign that equates to what it really is, i.e - the Square footages requirement to place a Lot marker of City or large sizes in POTS has been reduced.

    This allows one thing and only one thing, POT owners can place more of these without exceeding their SQ Feet Limit.

    This really did not nor does it need any discussion this is a post that should be something stated then locked.

    But first please correctly state the change it is not a Cost $$ / Gold or Cotos. It is the expenditure of Square Footage Allotment reduction.
     
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  16. Bom

    Bom Avatar

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    I don't think you even read the post you replied to very well. Where did I claim POT upgrades were the only thing keeping Portalarium solvent? Go back and read again.

    Yes, POT owners don't have to use all housing space available to them, but the vast majority do take advantage of all housing space available to them, which is one reason why so many are happy to get more space for free. Pick ten random POTs, visit them and see how many have made full use of all the available housing for their town size. It's only the rare POT owner that doesn't make use of all housing space available to them.

    I agree that POT owners can build larger nicer towns with more housing space available to them. But why not have smaller nicer towns when there is no need for more housing? Wouldn't you agree that there is already far too many empty housing lots for the population of Shroud of the Avatar? A smaller town can remove unnecessary housing in order to create more public spaces. And those that truly want a larger nicer town can pay Portalarium for an upgrade, can they not? I'm not making any claims regarding the percentage of income that comes from town upgrades, I only pointed out that this change will make it less likely that people will pay for upgrades, which will reduce Portalarium's income overall.

    It's no secret that Shroud of the Avatar is already horribly underpopulated for the thousands of empty housing lots already in the game and this change will only result in more, at a cost of reduced sales for Portalarium.

    Nice attempt at sophistry, but POT owners are in fact getting more space for free. The simple fact is that if houses cost less to place, while remaining the same size, then more space will be available for use for free and more houses can be placed. So, the only misconception here is yours. A simple example;

    A POT Holdfast owner has 12,600 square meters. The POT has one castle (9,600m) and 20 rows (150m x 20 = 3000). If the cost to place the castle is reduced to 3,000, then there will be 6,600m more space available for more housing, enough for the owner to increase the number of row lots from 20 to 64.
    It should be obvious that 44 additional row lots are going to take up more space and result in a larger town, unfortunately it appears this is not obvious to some. If the cost in size to place homes is reduced, even though the overall town size remains the same, it will result in more house lots occupying more space, or larger towns. You need to check your math, your claims are provably false.

    The main reason POTs are empty is because there are too many housing lots available in the game for the game population, not because, "the owner isn't advertising, the players live elsewhere, players don't care to live in a PoT, the player base is still growing, etc. There are a whole host of reasons towns are empty..."

    I think you should read my post again too, rather than attempting to make provably false arguments to help yourself feel better.

    Speaking of people upgrading deeds to larger deed sizes, since Portalarium significantly destroyed the market value of their property deeds they're going to be much harder to sale, even for much less, because the act of a company devaluing their own assets with the stroke of a pen, and all the purchases of all previous customers, is one that results in a terrible reputation and people having little trust in the company's management of assets going forward. Hopefully this can be overcome in the long term, but for now you're not going to see many people spending much money at all on deed upgrades, nor anything else for that matter, only the hardcore fans. It's only natural that most people that lost hundreds or thousands of dollars on their purchases of Portalarium assets are going to complain about it to everyone they know and avoid spending more money with Portalarium. That was a bad move, especially when upgraded deeds could have been made to differ from the purchases of all previous customers in many ways i.e. size, storage, name, expiration, limitations, cost, episode, town type, house type, stories, basement type, decorations etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  17. Bom

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    I do like the creativity of this idea to sell these packages, but will these castle deeds also be limited or different in other ways from previous castle deeds, respecting people that invested $30,000 in the Portalarium Seedinest, or spent up to $13,000 on a Blood Reliquary to receive one? Or will these people be the next supporters to have the value of their contributions and game assets devalued? Will the pledges of people that paid up to $10,000 for castle deeds which can also be placed in POTs also have their deeds further devalued when used in POTs? Please always consider balancing new game assets with previous ones to not only respect the contributions of previous supporters and customers, but to start earning trust within the community that maintaining and developing the value of Shroud of the Avatar assets is even something Portalarium is going to start taking seriously.

    Unique properties like a zero space requirement for an island placed deed is a great way to sell new deeds, but how about at least trying to maintain the value of existing assets and respecting previous supporters at the same time with some restrictions too? Maybe new island castles take up no POT space, but they're not allowed to have basements on islands - the cheaper cost and construction of these castles on islands is dubious? Maybe they require paying at least some tax or maintenance for a basement? Maybe the deeds expire sooner? Maybe they have less storage? Maybe the usable lot size is slightly reduced? Maybe less vendors? Maybe they only work in episode 2? Maybe it only accommodates a new island specific home?

    There are many ways to balance new game assets with existing ones while maintaining a good reputation with customers that will result in increasing the desirability of Shroud of the Avatar game assets rather than destroying them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  18. Fionwyn Wyldemane

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    Definition of sophistry
    1: subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation

    I love words, even when they are used to paint what I'm saying as deceptive...lol. Good times!

    @Bom , I can see you and I are not going to agree on the concept of 33,600 remaining 33,600 (or anything else for that matter) because you have it stuck in your head that all PoT owners magically got more room. For Free! And because you believe it to be true, even though it's demonstrably false, that means someone like me is being deceptive when I point out the fallacy of what you are presenting.

    Hey no worries man, whatever floats your boat!

    As for me, I'm jumping ship. Sorry mate, I have other things to do that keep me in my happy place. This is my last comment on the matter at hand-

    33,600 = 33,600
     
  19. Lars vonDrachental

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    @Bom and @Fionwyn Wyldemane
    I would say you both are right. ;)
    The total number did not changed and e.g. 33600 remain 33600 but at the same time and depending on the placed markers there is “more free space” for PoT-owners. Prior you could place 14 city markers in a 33600 m² PoT but now you can place 18,6 city markers (44800 m²) in the same PoT and I think that’s all Bom is complaining about. Even if the size stays as it is you can put more inside but just if the conditions are met.

    My first guess would be this is better for the large hubs and less good for the small towns but thinking about it I really don't know if that is true as in hubs the governor and citizens may prefer small lots while just in the the rural towns larger lots can be found. If this is true this adjustment would change not much as the hubs would stay as they are as there are just row and village lots and in the rural PoTs with larger lots it normally doesn't matter if there are some thousand additional m² as they are anyway not using the full numbers.