Crafting changes

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Nick, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. Nick

    Nick Bug Hunter

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    "Definitely a LOT of stuff that needs love but work to make gear more balanced and meaningful is long overdue and helps both adventurers, crafters, and the economy"

    I wish before Chris starts anything on crafting, he'll spend some time to say, mine enough ores to make 1 decent set of exceptional meteoric plate armour with say, 3 MW and 2 Enchant on each piece during a friday stream maybe. He can talk while mining. :)

    (He can try doing a carapacian set if he is up to the challenge)

    His experience from that should help crafters and improve the economy.
     
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  2. Nick

    Nick Bug Hunter

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    Oh, he needs to do the refining, crafting of the armour as well as enchanting and masterworking too.

    Am respectfully wishing that he'll do it, so to understand the pain points.The frustration of a gatherer, a refiner, a crafter.
    The high costs as a result to make the gear, at a price that few can afford.

    Having going through the process, when he is doing all the math for to make improvements for the said players and economy, I wish he will also consider the painful aspects of gameplay, and include solutions to them when he's making changes to the fundamentals of crafting.

    Chris is a good guy, just that sometimes, he's too smart that he overlooks little things. I just wish sometimes he just stop thinking (and working) for a day or two and hands on to experience what crafters, gatherers and players do.

    Shroud of the Avatar is a game, a place to relax and make friends. A place to have fun and make yourself happy. Players don't want to come in to punish and stress themselves. :)
     
  3. Elas TheWise

    Elas TheWise Avatar

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    I do not think we have the hours / weeks to watch him gather enough Beetle Carapace for enough to get just an ok set of exceptional carapcian, not to mention several sets so you can fail on the MW and Enchants a few times.

     
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  4. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    You guys are all right...
    Unfortunately he's been asked and asked to do exactly that for several years in several threads, time after time, and probably will never happen.

    Don't hurt to try again 'tho... :)
     
  5. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I don't want to watch a week-long stream of 60 hours of mining/returning to town to drop off and then 40 hours of straight refining bars (maybe an exciting few hours of cash grinding to afford the coal needed) to then pull the crafting jackpot lever and see all that you gained come to nothing. That'd be the most boring and disappointing stream ever. I don't think anyone would find that entertaining to watch, even with the best commentary ever. And by extension, it isn't that fun to -do- either. Until the fundamental problem with crafting RNG waste gets addressed I don't see a way off this particular hamster wheel.

    Its beyond time to stop punishing players for playing the game - punishment is a deterrent, its why you reprimand a child who misbehaves because you want them to change the behavior. If you punish someone for playing the game, you're going to change the behavior - to not playing it.
     
  6. Sulaene Moon

    Sulaene Moon Avatar

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    I thought 2020 was the year that loot wasn't supposed to suck anymore?
     
  7. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer Ambassador

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    Doing a stream today where I'll talk some about this. I do play the game some but finding the right people to listen to is far more valuable.

    @Sulaene Moon 2020 isn't over yet! However, I'm trying to make sure I'm fixing the right things. Just adding more artifacts to the game helps one problem but makes the other problems worse which is why I'm trying to focus on crafting stuff right now. I hear and understand the frustration though.
     
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  8. Sulaene Moon

    Sulaene Moon Avatar

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    Truthfully you should take Artifacts out. When everyone asked for better loot, artifacts wasn't the request or answer.
    Keep your chin up and keep pushing through.
     
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  9. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I dunno Sulaene, I think the first "pass" of artifacts were alright. They were quirky things, had some unique effects but most had downsides or, if they were good in a particular build, they were not 'best in slot' - except perhaps the Sage's Sash which is one of the older ones. Brittlebrawn rings? Sure, super strength, but most folks couldn't handle the downside which made it selectively useful. But with the onset of Dolus Hoods, bandit gear, warlock chains, super-attunement fire wands, etc. is where things started to unravel. Just thinking about the prospect of how many 0.0001% world drop artis I'd need to combine to "maybe" get a decent belt (since you know, the crafting rng application) ...makes me want to uninstall. The problem wasn't that artifacts exist, but that they were so completely and so dramatically best in slot with no close alternatives. Its the same reason why there was a time when everyone and their mother was wearing a white shroud cloak, because it was the only thing that had stats - and you'd see these bright white things everywhere, full groups of people all with their blinding white shroud and particle effects.

    The sage's sash for example, which adds 15 int with some heavy downsides (and epic versions add what, +30?) would be a nice-to-have-and-combine, sure, but if I could craft a belt with a base of 20 with no downsides and reliably enchant it to where I wanted it, then it would be a non issue. Sure, the super artifact collector who buys a few million gold to clean out all of these on all vendors and combine them will have something more powerful, but at least there's a close runner-up. Same deal dolus hoods. Same deal warlock chains - I mean, that necklace is so far beyond best in slot that the light from best in slot will take a million years to reach us. Its literally the only option for a caster build.

    So I don't mind if we have artifacts. But there needs to be a crafting equivalent - divorced from the rare drop lotto.
     
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  10. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I like artifacts as a way to introduce unique, one-sided items to the game. However, when they became enchantable/masteworked, they easily became best-in-slot for every item. They would be fine it they were tiered, without enchantment, but as-is, there is no reason to pick craftable over artifact. So crafting either needs tiers, to get up to the same power level as artifacts, or we need to look at another way to balance it.
     
  11. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Artifacts could always have had charges and ability to break them down for crafting components.
     
  12. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    This is what I mean by 'divorced from rare drop bs' though.
    This is when it ceases to be "crafting" and it becomes "fighting a bunch of stuff for super rare stuff then clicking a button "
    All the emphasis in this system is on "fight"
    Fight to get the recipes (rare drop!)
    Fight to get the component (rare drop!)
    Fight to get money for fuel (since crafting doesn't pay for itself)
    Fight constantly to even harvest anywhere
    Once you get done with the fighting bit, the crafting bit is "stare at refining bar until brain goes numb" and then "press button, hope you get lucky."
    Not lucky? Start again at step 1 and do it all for another week and try again.

    We brought a friend to Sota and because I knew he was a bit of a hardcore type, we went ahead and made him gear so he could kill stuff easier and then gave him a list of everything we used. He was absolutely floored at the amount of resources it took and at how many attempts and how much trash. To his credit, he spent 4 weeks in the mines to reimburse us. And then promptly left the game and has not returned - because the mere thought of doing that for an alternative set of gear to try out something else (or to replace it in a few weeks) was like staring up a sheer cliff face.

    There is RNG in getting the drops. Fine.
    Then there's RNG in getting the salvage.
    There is RNG in getting exceptional (without which, there's insufficient dura to do anything)
    There is then RNG in whether you succeed or not
    Then more RNG in what you actually get
    There's even RNG in how many times you get to reroll!

    I think one level of RNG is enough, personally.

    Crafting needs to be predictable and consistent, or it is never going to work, we are never going to have a thriving market, because the time required to produce anything 'good' is too high and people simply aren't willing to pay the gold for quality work because it breaks so fast. The amount of junk created is over the top and there's no consumption for it. The outputs aren't worth the cost of the resources used! And the crafter's skill and time investment are given no value because the resulting item is not significanlty better for it.

    We've been dancing around this RNG issue since before Day 1 because it was part of the original design concept, but after 5 years now of living with it - it does not work. Its time to try something else. It hampers the ability to add any new effects (further diluting the options pool) and makes gear too costly to bother with. The "rerolls" when implemented mitigated this somewhat, but then here comes a bunch of new effects into the pool with lower chances and we are worse off than before. Shredding through 2000 ingots and having nothing to show for it is an absurdity especially if you consider the time it takes to acquire (and refine, and pay for the fuel for) said ingots.

    There are ways to add a layer of randomness that don't completely screw the player. The foundation of the crafting system - selectable material bonuses, is fantastic. Some of the materials and styles need tweaking, but its a great system, allowing player choice in the composition of the gear. Then you get to masterworks and enchants and its just downright painful. This is not about player choice, this is about pulling a slot lever hundreds of times until you get what you want. Its gambling with your time, and the house always wins.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  13. tyorl999

    tyorl999 Avatar

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    @Chris and @all crafters

    Just my 2 Cents on crafting:
    I played for years now and am specialized in Blacksmith.
    I habe EVERY Crafting Skill GM, but ALL Blacksmith-Skills (MW included at 125+).

    I am not a trader; I only made Armour and Weapons for myself and for Guildmembers.
    SotA is a long term game; I dont understand why all player will be A++ equippend after playing some hours; it takes timeto earn enough gold to buy an armor or farm materials and bring it tto the crafter and ask for building an Armor.

    I really like the complexibility of the crafting system in SotA and that you need some hours to farm the materials for the Armor / Weapon you need; thats an absoult PLUS for the crafting system

    I dont really like the players they wont pay a good amount of gold for a godd armor / weapon ... my Guess is: for a +17 and more MW/Ench full Chain Armor made by a 130+ Skill Crafter you have to pay at least 200k - 300k Gold ; just to honour the Crafter who spends tons of hours in farming the Materiels

    I dont really like the time to spend in crafting Ingots and so on; just half the time for refining materials and many player will be lucky; it dont need many more changes in crafting, because when SotA started one target was:
    The best Armor / weapon in game will be a crafted one!!! ... and you bring up more and more artifacts ...so you dont need any longer BS, Carpenter and Tailor for crafting good armors
     
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