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crafting - please make it more interactive

Discussion in 'Release 13 Feedback' started by ThurisazSheol, Jan 19, 2015.

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  1. Morkul

    Morkul Avatar

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    You do know that by saying that you are asking to redo the whole crafting from scratch? I think crafting have too damn low priority as it is right now if they will start over we will never get a crafting system.
     
  2. Joviex

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    Don't disagree, and even can go so far to say, yeah, I would probably get sick of it myself; however, those that don't get sick of it, that is the entire point.

    Just because something is in a game, it doesn't automatically mean it should be everything, for everybody.

    I would much prefer to see people playing roles, instead of driving a wedge between communities, and even small groups of adventurers, because no one is special, and everyone is the same damn build *** (eventually).

    Give me high level magic wielding mages, that I can't come close to using their magics.

    Give me martial fighters who can do backflips and tumble and slash their way to victory.

    Give me crafters who can make ridiculous items, from ridiculous time investments, just like any other skill.

    Dont give me characters that can do all those things, just because I spent the time to do every single thing.

    That is totally, and utterly ridiculous, as it would be in life. There are polymaths, which are like 1% of the total population of the planet, not just because.

    THAT is what is killing role playing in games (CRPG), the lack of specialization and need of specialized roles. You want to be everything? Just put in more time, or spend more micro-transaction money for the privilege.

    I know people will say: But my time is (fill in whatever self-importance you want here).

    So is mine, and so is everyone elses. You are not a special snowflake in that regard.

    The philosophical difference here is a game where people like to play WITH other people, and rely on them as a GROUP, versus, being able to just do whatever you need, when you need it, regardless of a group.

    I prefer the former.
     
  3. ThurisazSheol

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    the current system is a placeholder for when they can get to it later. this is NOT the crafting system for the end-product. - regardless of my asking, they are planning on doing that anyway, unknown if it is adding UI to the current one (hope not) or starting over with a more interactive approach. i prefer the latter.

    their focus on crafting is all about the tool in your hand, and has been so far. so following that paradigm, lets use the tools provided to us.
     
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  4. ThurisazSheol

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    instead of arguing something i already half agree with here, i offer a solution to this detail:

    make the minigame part of the END PRODUCT section, instead of for every material, refinement and submaterial creation section... so you can clickclickmake for the axe head, coil of rope, timber, etc...but to make the guillotine you should balance out the placement of parts, and lock them into place. thats the minigame....but i feel there should be +1/-1 events during refinement that can not be scripted, that dictate the QUALITY of the finished product.
     
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  5. Morkul

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    Well when devs discuss recipes it sounds kind of how they planned things...


    If you are going to have mini games for crafting you also need it for gathering /mining and every step on the way to the end product or else there will be a lot of crafters that only to things like arrow heard instead of complete arrows just to get away from the mini games. I read what you wrote several times and from what I figuerd out you mean I can go from step 1-10 in one move, if I misunderstand something please explain.

    Again +1/-1 would not make anything different in the scripting apartment, everything you can make with the mouse I can script to emulate unless there is a extreme time (not I do mean time as in milli sec) frame. It's that short timeframe that makes it hard to make aimbots for FPS.

    Anyone are entitled to their opinion and mine are that i sincerely hope that devs don't add something like mini games because for a lot us crafters it would just be an annoyance. Just the facts that PK, and when they implements thieves, start attacking/stealing from you while attending to a mini game would be even more irritating than it is right now, and that is hard enough. All ending up in that you un-PVP-flag just to craft even if you really don't want to and do not in any way fit your characters normal behaviour. I beg to any dev reading this that do not introduce this kind of mini games because I know it will end the game for a lot of crafters.
     
  6. ThurisazSheol

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    what i meant was have minigames in the final stage of the item you are crafting, so all refining is done without the minigames EXCEPT for the +1/-1 that defines the quality of the refinement, therefore the end-result/quality of the finished product.

    so to make a SuperDuper Epic Popsicle Stick of Doom +10, you'd need to have highly refined materials across the board, ready to go when piecing the finished item together. otherwise you may have a Super Popsicle Stick of Rainbows as the end result..

    Part of that process could be going to those fabled pvp zones with the AWESOME gatherable materials, and harvesting a stack of DoomWood or heading to Super Candy Land, over the rainbow road, and getting some GlitterWood from there, in a safe friendly PVE environment.


    of course the SuperDuper Epic Popsicle Stick of Doom, would have better damage than the Super Popsicle Stick of Rainbows - Doom hits harder than Rainbows and Glitter, everyone knows that.. But some people would prefer the GlitterWood Popsicle Stick.

    then when you refine the materials you get a +1 event with the DoomWood and a +1 event with the GlitterWood, at the milling station.

    Event results
    +1 to DoomWood gives the back-end stat of a small DoT for 3 seconds. repeatable once every 10 seconds.
    +1 to Glitterwood drops an extra piece of gold on the mob you hit, twice a second for 5 seconds, timer refreshes every 30 seconds during the same fight.

    So when at the Carpentry station, you take the +1 GlitterWood and shave it to a fine sliver, using the deft touch of the mouse to faintly curve the edges juuuuust right, stain it, and carve a rune or two into it, just for looks.
    Maybe with the DoomWood, you decide on a different approach - go with a more acute edge and enhance the sharpness just a touch, but doing so makes the edge more frail and prone to blunting faster (i.e. needing repairs more often)

    from what i'm understanding of how this will work - there will be people who will be doing EXACTLY what you say, just gathering, or just refining, or just doing the finished product, anyway. this generally creates an economy without having money sinks everywhere int he world for no apparantly obvious reasons. it also generates a sense of connectedness with the other community members around you. from what i can tell, everything is kind of connected here, even a nutrition system with foods and potions and drinks.. just kind of works out, if you ask me.

    and to be clear - the part i agree with you is this: every step of the way having a minigame will get really tedius and will cause people to just wander away, even many of the dedicated crafters. so why not build up to the big mini games, each step of the way to the finished product states. those going through that will be rewarded. those that don't want to go through them, will also be rewarded by not "losing time" with the minigames they choose not to play.
     
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  7. Morkul

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    You do know that everything in this game will me player crafted, even NPC drops? Some crafting will produce consumables, like food and drinks so there you have an obvious outlet. Equipment will be impossible to mend after a while so you need to buy new, so there you also have an obvious outlet. Since you can't sell items no one wants it's in the crafters interest to create items you can sell. I can't in any way see how a mini game would affect that balance at all. From that I can tell it looks like you think you will be able to make a million of same item over and over again to make gold even if no one wants to buy that item, but SotA won't work like that.

    Yea an about the "in a safe friendly PVE environment." once game go full release I will be constantly PvP flagged with all my characters so there will be no friendly environment. I would hate to see crafter remove the PvP flag just so they can play some mini game that in my opinion don't really add something to the game.
     
  8. Themo Lock

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    It doesn't say anywhere that equipment will degrade to the point where it can't be repaired, it is extremely unlikely that it will be the case for equipment from pledge rewards for example. Some people ONLY want to craft so i can see why they would want it to be as involved as possible. They did say that even NPC will pay less and less for items that they are overstocked on though so without extremely rare materials or some sort of rare outcome from crafting i can see how the economy could stagnate.
     
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  9. Morkul

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    Devs have said several times that the cost of repairing will increase for every repair done so you will get to a point where repairing your old equipment will not be worth the cost. Pledge items are indestructible and will never even need repair.

    During a hangout RG himself have said shopkeeper will stop buying items if there is a surplus.

    Edit: It takes forever to search videos but I remembered this:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-made-items-idea-dev-replied.1650/#post-20246
     
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  10. ThurisazSheol

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    yes, i know that. yes, i anticipate it. yes i expect it. yes i incorporate it into my ideas from the start.

    no, i do not think i will be able to bang out a lot of widgets and make mad cash. i wouldn't WANT to even if i could. as a crafter, the value is in the journey of crafting, not the end-result of what is crafted. most of the money will come from "custom orders" based on need of the community at the time. i have no illusions that this will be the dumb system we see now, example: leather chest pieces with leather straps sell for a stagnant 2048 to any vendor. that won't happen when they finish the AI for shopkeepers. - and that has NOTHING to do with minigames which is why i haven't spoken of them in this context, until now.

    minigames are the combat of crafting. the fun. the journey. the excitement. - for people who only think of crafting as a tool to be able to do what they want, which isn't crafting, tend to not want minigames because they want the Wham Bam Thank You Ma'am attitude so they can just get back to what THEY percieve as fun. but that is not what quite a few folks i know want in a system like this. for those people i speak of, crafting IS the entire game. no minigames, no fun, no use in playing. people like that who craft for the sheer joy of the crafting, are what makes economies like the ones envisioned in this world a reality. every cog, has its place, so to speak.

    just because you want a simple click-and-done interface, does not mean there is zero value in the minigame interface. for people who are dedicated crafters, it is VERY important to have substance in this aspect of the game. it in and of itself isn't a tool like you seem to believe, it is the journey. without a minigame interface, it is a GAME KILLER for them. and there are more people like that than you realize. if crafting isn't interesting interactive and immersive, there is no game for them because that IS their game. pvp? no. pve? no. RP? not really. they craft. they get their enjoyment out of crafting, not the other systems unrelated.

    one thing i do hope to see, in those pvp zones, have special crafting stations in the wild that you can only get certain pvp-esque perks from...the crafter, if they choose not to pvp, will have to bring guards with them who DO choose to pvp - because that crafter WILL be flagged while in that zone, after all.. or if they choose to pvp, then they'll probably STILL have to bring guards with them. :) i don't want to see someone who focuses strictly on crafting and not what i consider, GAMING as a whole, have the ability to craft any and every thing without some risk for reward implemented.. and i think this will help towards that.


    in my guild, the consummate crafters have spoken for literally HOURS about their experiences crafting in various games, with zeal the entire time. its a thing. just because you do not like it, doesn't make it not a thing for others, as i've come to find out. personally, i'm not one of the consummate crafters in my guild. i like doing many things, crafting is one of them, not even close to the primary one, either. my personal goal is for a well rounded game that is fun for as many people to play in as many ways as they wish to, or as few, all while not encroaching on the fun of others.

    ---

    i just did a quick poll in my guild for active members, so i'm sure of the percentages here.
    98% of them want minigames of a sort in there. be it events, or actual threading of the needle, or whatever, all at varying degrees in the game...
    like the really hard stuff has more invested minigames, but the really easy does not. that is akin to reagent use - where simple spells/skills do not use them, but the more powerful ones do.
    2% did not - in ESO, they were members of trade guilds to make as much money as quickly as possible. i.e. crafting as a tool, not a journey in and of itself.


    75% of them want skills specifically to make it easier to 'thread the needle' - the other 25% don't care either way.
    none of them do NOT want that.

    100% of them want skills designed to buff or mitigate debuffs on refining and finished products.

    100% of them want to use the systems and gain skill points for those skills only to spend.
    they don't want to kill a wolf, and get better at alchemy.

    90% of them REALLY want crafting gear. 5% think it is REALLY stupid, 5% ignored the question.
    none of them actually care if the gear has stats to make the crafting better - they said it would be cool but not necessary, as a whole...it is for RP purposes they claim.
     
  11. Lord Baldrith

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    100% agreed ThurisazSheol. Crafting is important to me as well. I love interacting with my crafting the same as others like PvP and combat. Honestly the biggest reason I'm not as concerned either way about combat (even tho it bores me thus far) is the prospect that our crafting system will be deep and interactive. If it is simple and easy and boring, then I will find myself getting bored quick with the game.

    I have always been able to quickly level up my crafting in games except Vanguard and UO took lots of work and time, which is what I hope we will get here. I do not make a mad rush to top out my skills. I enjoy the journey more than any other part of the game. I am hoping that they will be able to find a happy medium for the hard-core crafters and the casual crafters.

    Hmmm PvP crafting thread :p
     
  12. majoria70

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    Also besides the crafting being more interractive, perhaps having crafting quests that add more meaning and satisfaction to crafting.

    There could be quite the story lines going on around finding an acient recipe that has risks to the person who crafts it,

    perhaps to craft this item will give them a curse that they must cure or be permanently disabled in some way if they don't find the cure.:)
     
  13. Myrcello

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    I do not know what EQ2 did.
    But i remember i did enjoy it.
    Basically you had to time well your skills to increase the chance for better items.

    Was sort of a addicting process
    Like Fishing in UO.
    I could relax doing it. Was a stress release doing it .
    I did watch sometimes a movie on the other screen or chatted. You could still time well as a sound did also give you a hint to time your skills good.




    Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
     
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  14. ThurisazSheol

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    i've played many mmo's since uo first came out. the only one where crafting truly caught my attention was eq2 - it was addicting, you are perfectly correct myrcello, nor could i put my finger on it. i THINK for me, the draw to making furniture there was the fact that it was furniture, and not somethign to beat people with, or mitigate getting beat less myself.

    i remember learning a new style or getting a better finish..and decking out my house with it. i kind of used my house as a showroom. people would go in and take a look, and then send me a letter asking me to make it for them. i never advertised my services, but i was one of the richest players on the server for that reason alone. i'd trade a top-tier table for a top-tier uber-epic-super leather chest armor. so i could start to solo the areas where i harvested the materiasl for that table. i had people pay me in materials, twice the amount for the item, and no gold. then people would pay gold for an identical item. it was VERY lucrative because people LOVE to decorate their virtual homes, and their opinions on what looks great is constantly changing.

    yes, i'll be a furniture crafter here too..there is no doubt about that.. i haven't been this excited about crafting, since eq2. and for the EXACT same reasons. so while i'm passionate about how the crafting system is going to work, because i will be spending many hours there - for that reason, i want it to be as fun as it can be.
     
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  15. Themo Lock

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    I actually loved the crafting in quite a few games, Darkfall for one (though the constant possibility of being murdered may have added to it), The Elder scrolls games (i think it was Arena that also had that great spell customisation system) i even really enjoyed crafting in minecraft heh. None of them quite got to the point where i could die happy and fulfilled though.
     
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  16. Spoon

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    I would like there to be some sort of risk/reward choice.

    If I want to just bang out 20 iron swords and I am skilled enough then I can play it "safe" and get almost 100% success rate, but no chance for uber.
    Then if I want to make something really nice, I take big risks and increase the über chances. Suddenly I have only 10% chance of success, lots of mini games and a potentially really great result.

    So if I'm low skill I might need to decrease risks just to get any result.

    EDIT
    forgot to add
    My reasoning is that a low skill shouldn't produce high end result.
    While a high skill could chose between safe result and uber results.
    This is similar to real life when you look on craftsmen/women, they can churn out similar stuff over and over with very few mistakes but which never produce a high end result. While if they take their time, try out new techniques and experiment, then they can have lots of misses (learning by burning) but also a few extraordinary pieces.
     
  17. Morkul

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    Lets forget that I really dislike mini games due to it breaks role playing.


    There is a HUGE difference. After playing 6 month I will combat different monsters than I did day 1, all with their own tactic that I need to adopt to. The players I will fight will definitely have different tactics that i need to adapt to. After 6 month I still have the same mini game that I all ready done at least a million times by now and nothing have changed just do the same thing I did day 1. This is even if you make different games depending ot tasks. I haven't seen any game so far with a mini game that actually would be fun to play a few million times, it's like smartphone games, most of them last a week other perhaps two before you uninstall them.

    Okay make the mini games optional then, no benefit or they will just be scripted to get 100%. That would be a solution that all like. As I already said in this thread: There is other ways to make crafting more dynamic, realistic and more interactive.

    I'm in a roleplaying guild with 300 pledged members and 80 have answer a poll and 100% of them are against any kind of mini games that disrupts the role playing. So all this polls are heavily depending on what kind of guild you are in, witch means both your and mine poll are really useless :).

    Thing is that this isn't a crafting simulator, it's a role playing game. I know one of my characters will be a farmer that I play together with my wife (some kind of seamstress) and I would love to have a field that I can plow and so, I would not mind it taking some time to complete the task and the outcome are depending on my characters skill. But if dev put in a interface there I actually need to steer the ox in a straight line to plow I would go mad and start wondering if I installed farm simulator? Okay if you want that make it optional but I still think that devs should spend their time on other things that can elevate the game experience more, for everyone than this would do for crafters.
     
  18. Morkul

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    I also like some of the elder scrolls games crafting but that again are not mini games but rather different recipes you need to create, adding souls to your sword or spell chances and things like that. But once you are done fiddling with how you want your item and made sure you got all the right ingredients/reagents you clicked on create and it was your skill that decided if you was successful or not. Worth to note is that I sometimes sat 20-30 minutes to design equipment because you always tried to reconfigure to get it cheaper or to add just one more ability. Something you really wanted to do needed reagents that was extremely hard to find, or souls that was really powerful so you search for quite some time before you were able to actually create the item you wanted.
     
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  19. Greymarch

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    Don't forget we will have to actually spend points into our crafting skills. It won't be throw stuff on the table and auto-succeed like it is now.
     
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  20. ThurisazSheol

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    i can get behind this spoon. but i'd think it should be 15% with skill points to make it even higher from there, and help further mitigate it.only up to 23% max tho. maybe take the eq2 approach where there are skills you can use to boost production, but if an event happens and you hit the wrong skill, it goes down instead of up. (kind of like not hitting a stun blocker once stunned by a lich)

    not really. it enhances role playing because you keep playing your role while crafting as a crafter. - no minigames mean you pause RP to do something, then resume once you magically have the finished item in your hand. THAT is broken role play. mostly because the devs are focusing ont he tool in your hand approach, as opposed to just making stuff like many earlier mmo's and rpgs.


    that is a potential frusteration, no doubt about it, however the higher tier items should have different events and as spoon stated earlier, make it adaptable to the materials as well as the finished product you are making. that way, it is pretty much always different than the last, unless if you choose to make, by your count, "at least a million" iron bindings.

    i have two responses to this:
    1. risk for reward - add a benefit to using the minigame because with the minigame you risk making the item in a poorer condition if you fail at it, while the reward will be a "mint" ish condition when you success, based on your skill in that minigame.
    2. i haven't seen yet, any suggestions you've had on making crafting more dynamic, realistic, and more interactive. just complaints that move towards making it less of those things. please list a few of your suggestions, as i'd honestly love to see them from your perspective.



    did you state anywhere near the question that the minigame will disrupt the rp? that is your assumption, mine did not have assumptions built into the questions. in fact even though my guild already voted, they're still battling about the topic. quite amusing if you ask me.




    there are going to be two tiers of crafting in the game. the primary ones already in the marketing logo for crafting, and the insignia on the crafting cloak. all the others, like brewing and farming to name only a couple, are the second tier. they won't be official craft skills, but they will be in the game.

    as far as farming, head over to ardoris, you'll see these long wooden boxes with soil in them in a couple places in the town. thats how farming is going to happen. more like planting seeds and watering them, than real farming with the oxen like you said.



    and it does elevate the game for everyone. except the people who want the easy button. they've already said they do not want to give an easy button away if ever possible. - and i COMPLETELY agree with that sentiment.
     
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