Crafting Production Rates: Quality or Quantity

So I think this has been touched in a coulpe threads but perhaps not really tackled as a topic all it's own. The question of how quickly you can produce crafted items.

In the end it largely comes down to two factors I think. World economy and whether or not crafting becomes tedious.

Crafting should always be fun.. never truly tedious and yet I know what I don't want to see is some weekend crafter pumping out 100 words in 10 minutes. Like you just gather a large mass of materials and then speed click a button for a couple seconds and your done.. would be for me, a pretty lame crafting experience.

I also don't want to see macro crafting.. where you can set something up and have it craft for you while you're afk.

The other side of the coin though is it should require to many steps or take more than a few seconds per item. Making the player wait beyond a certain amount of time is indeed, tedious.

So I think perhaps a timed progress bar might be good. Say the higher your skill the faster you work. At low skill it might take 10 seconds.. but at maked skill it might take 3-5. All of which subject to game balancing of course.

 

I think this dilemma can be addressed quite well through the old economic model of time vs cost vs quality triangle.

Lets say the player needs 20 items of something stat, for whatever reason. The fixed variable here is time, where higher quality would raise the cost of crafting, and lowering the quality would also lower the cost.

But, if the player wanted to craft extremely high quality items, the two variables are time and cost, requiring lots of time and cost to complete these exquisite items.

This would have the result of being a self-regulating market economy (at least in this respect) where the fine wares would be few and far between just because they take so long to craft, preventing the player from crafting other items at the same time. The limited available of high quality items would raise the demand, and the selling price, allowing for decent profits.

Of someone decides to churn out cheap crap, they can flood the market with 99c store items, but will hardly make any profit at all due to reduced demand and extremely low profit margins because of high availability.

I would like to see a lot of free-market principles implemented, and hopefully would result in a self-regulating market. **dream**

 

Hmm, I think crafting will need to work differently for this game compared to other MMOs, since it has already been stated that full-time crafters/shopkeepers will be viable. You want a very deep and fairly complex system, so that people can spend time figuring things out and coming up with signature products.

I would definitely like there to be elements of player skill and knowledge separate from the actual avatar's skill and knowledge. Crafting in most other MMOs feels like a tacked-on system, meant as a way to spend a little downtime in between combat sessions. I'd like to see several steps to the crafting process.

1. People bringing in raw material like ores, which the crafter will then be able to mix in a crucible in different ratios to form metal alloys with different properties. Like for example, melting iron bars with charcoal dust to make steel. This step is where "player knowledge" comes into play, since you have to figure out which ratios of the different metals produce the best outcomes. Now invent fantastical raw elements that can be incorporated into a steel-alloy mix. These could be parts of monsters or even found in chests (possibly through mining?)

2. Your final molten alloy could then be poured into ingots for weapons or armor molds. If you make rare metals infrequent treasure system drops, then the people who know how to work with rare metals will be sought after by players.

3. After the poured metal cools, you take the pieces to the forge and pound out what you want to make. Character skill comes into play here, and will determine how good your product will be.

4. Maybe a separate crafting system might involve imbuing items with enchantments, so the item could be handed off to an in-house enchanter. Enchanting would need to be a rare occurance, and should likely involve a lot of time and powerful magical reagents.

5. Wares on sale at a player store might range from slightly better than storebought steel weapons and armor all the way up to high-end rare material gear with enchantments.

The more systems the better. Say making a bow is a very different process from smithing, then players might specialize in bowmaking. The end result you want to see is specialty stores for individual products, instead of Wal-marts everywhere that sell everything, because every crafting character can make everything.

 

For the moment I'm going to resist shamelessly plugging my idea for a crafting framework *cough cough* (or not) which could handle this idea.. but I have some other thoughts here I'd like to squeeze in.

A lot of people aren't going to like the concept of figuring stuff our yourself and going through all those extra steps.. UNLESS.. the 'tediousness' of the process is counter-balanced by ability to do this in quantity. If I'm going to have to go through all that extra work just to turn some ore or lesser metals into something I can use, then I want to be able to do it in mass quantity or at least in large quantity so that the resulting metal can keep me surplied for a time.

If I can produce enough metal to make 20 swords without having to resmelt, that is infinity better than having to smelt metal 4-20 times for the same result.

So to those who want to keep it simple, I ask you all to consider the added complexity not as something you have to do over and over for each item but as something that can keep you supplied for crafting many items. Surely that would feel more natural and less tedious.

Though to be fair, the example is a little more complex than I would like. I would like to say this though. A serious crafter should be able to craft seriously. If you don't enjoy at least some depth in your crafting experience.. then is there other aspects to the game you enjoy more?

I have to disagree to an extent with the comment that more systems the better. I do want something with depth but not so much that only a hardcore crafter can enjoy it. I'd rather see a well balanced craft system with depth that doesn't turn off the less dedicated player.

 

@Bowen
It's obvious that you've given crafting considerable thought. My question is how can someone really distinguish themselves while at the same time making it easy for most people? I think the very best craftsmen should be few and far between; that crafting should take both avatar and player skill, as well as a good deal of dedication.

 

I think to answer that question there's a few factors to consider. It's not just the quality of your work that sets you apart but your dedication to your craft and also your ability to market your work as well as the connections you make in the game. Depending on the skill trees and materials involved the best crafters may very well need to team up with great suppliers and develop good business relationships to stay supplied.

Obviously the craft system also plays a part in this. There's a delicate balancing act that will need to be done in any decent crafting system. I think the framework I suggested could handle pretty much any scenario you can throw at it (watch someone prove that statement wrong. heh) but it's just that.. a framework. What it'll come down to it balancing the workload, skill and overall design of the various properties and how those properties will play out in the world.. especially in combat.

I think the idea I like best is customizable recipies. Where you can make have mutiple components with different appearances as well as different materials.. mix and match and then save that recipie to your personal recipie list for easy recall. So once you have it you can remake that item without going through the tedious task of reselecting all the parts and materials etc.

I believe the key to allowing for a complex system if counter-balancing that complexity with ease of use.

Ok I'm getting away from the question.. I'll call that my shameless plug of the day. Again I think the way to disginguish yourself isn't just through the merits of the system you're using but how you use it and the relationships you form in pursuit of success. Being the best isn't just about mastering the system but mastering the economy and your personal situation.

Sorry I rambled on.. (kinda)

 

I like the idea of recipes. I'd suggest an addition in that these recipes roll uniquely for each individual, so you don't get the devaluation of just being able to look it up on a website.

 

Here's my idea (shameless plug) for the entire system. I'm afraid it's scrolled down just a bit.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=craft-system-brainstorm

I'm not sure what you mean by roll uniquely unless you're thinking a recipie in this case has a physical manifistation which isn't what I had in mind. To summarize, recipies would be considered character knowledge. As you gain skill it would unlock 'standard' recipies for your basic weapons which you could then modify and save as unique recipies as you see fit for "rapid" reproduction. It's basically a shortcut to cut down on the tedious factor.

It could be feasible to have unique designs that could be found that can perhaps unlock the ability to use a special type of item though. That's an interesting thought. This should have a random factor to it as you suggest.

 

To take your fish example, it's a simple fish and the recipe has been handed to you because you made it to a certain level of skill. But you can discover different ways to fry that fish. The recipe isn't handed to you, you have to discover it through experimentation. Maybe for you a certain herb adds a slight boost to hit points. For another player it may be a different herb or a longer cooking time, or a dash of wine. Each person rolls a different recipe for the same thing.

 

hmm you know I hadn't really considered a good method of experimination. The idea lends itself prettty well to cooking. I'll have to add that to my other post after I dwell on it for a bit.

The idea occurs to me know.. that we can take a page out of the Elder Scrolls tricks from alchemy (and possibly other games) where you discover the properties of ingredients through experimentation.

There's been a lot of talk about different magical (and non-magical) properties on crafted items that can come from enchantments or my personal preference through special materials. So what if in order to learn what most of them are you need to experiment with them? What effect does that herb have on a fried or bbq'd fish anyway? Does it add anything special or just improve the quality? Only way is to find out.

I got some other interesting ideas I need to think about just typing that out. Not sure if they're any good or not yet so I'll think about it for awhle.

 

My idea for the enchanting of items was twofold. First they could acquire enchantments via crafting, for short I call it glimmer. There is also legend. Items acquire enchantments through use, an example being a sword that kills a giant(er) troll gets a bit better at trolls, and better again as it vanquishes trolls until it earns a name. Go after dragons next and it'll get a further name. Old weapons earn their legends and glimmer. Need I say that some of these enchantments are extremely difficult?

 

A simple and yet very cool idea. So it's basically a slaying enchantment that can only be used through use and possibly only unlockable through age. I might suggest further that special materials and/or a high skill in crafting might be required. Or at least would lessen the requirements.

You could then specialize a weapon by using other enchantments like say in your troll example.. fire which would make it easier to kill said trolls.

I was immediately reminded of some of the swords from LoTR.. Orcrist the Goblin Cleaver.. Glamdring the Foe-Hammer etc.. but you never really hear of weapons by Joe smith.. these are weapons that were all created by master craftsmen.

Perhaps you should start a post of your own on the subject? My thought on enchanting was that you could mount gems on your items as an accessory. The gem would hold the enchantment.. you could, in theory remove it and mount it on a new item. Then there was an idea of special materials having lesser properties.

You know I think the whole subject deserves its own post.

 

I like that idea. The special ingredient to allow for the absorption of the special powers when used should be directly related to the creature being slain. For example, if you wanted to create a dragonslayer sword that could penetrate their armor, you would need to get a piece of scale off the dragon as an ingredient in the forging of the sword.
This now quickly takes on something we might call alchemy or even witchery.

The limiting factor to prevent umber weapons over time inundating the entire world a year into the game will be that you first have to kill these mighty enemies, most likely requiring team-work or even group raids to take down one such creature.

This might, in turn, provide a new profession of mercenaries that group up specifically to collect special ingredients and get paid well for their exploits. This cost will be passed into these special weapons, further making them rare items in the game. These items should be extremely rare, yet achievable over time, if one is dedicated to getting them.

 

hmm I honestly can't say I care for the 'alchemy' approach here but that does remind me of another idea about discovering properties of materials. Rather than a dragon's scale (very suitable for armor though) I would use a super rare metal.

The NWN serer I played on had a crafting system that relied originally on creature parts to provide properties on weapons and it never made any sense to me.

Ah.. thought.. something that often occurs while I'm typing. A dragon's TOOTH or claw would make for the basis of a fine weapon though.. as the dragon uses those as weapons itself.. and against other dragons I might add. So there are some worthy exceptions. Though I don't care to see something like using fairy dust to improve weapon speed. That's just lame imo.

 

In the example of a dragon scale, it obviously has armoring properties, but if imbued or forged into a sword, it will take those same properties and turn them into offense instead of defense. Now, by itself a dragon sale sword made only of dragon scale would stalemate against dragon scale armor (or against dragon scales themselves). However, the addition of metals and other minerals give it additional properties that make it more effective than the defenses.

I piece is not necessarily just a sum of its parts, but much more when the individual components amplify their properties when combined correctly. Conversely, they could also negate themselves and result in a piece of crap that is completely useless, again tying back into the experimentation aspect.

 

Ok here's the problem I have with using creature parts that way. 1 + 1 != 3. Crafters aren't all going to be mages and there is no non-magical method of blending organic and inorganic into a single material. What makes dragon scales special is that they're hard and tough. That doesn't mean they'll hold an edge.

Any process that could meld it with metal would also be enough to destroy it. You have to completely suspend all disbelief for a fantasically unrealistic concept that is otherwise made up for fantasy. I just don't like the direction that takes us in. It makes no rational sense. If it's a magical property we're after then go through the enchanting process.

For me it ranks right up there "heavy" female stripper wear "armor" for fighters with 6 inch stiletto heals.

Now if it's dragon BONE we're after.. that's an entirely different story. That can be carved.

 

@Bowen I have been thinking about exactly that point over night as well and see where that can be somewhat problematic.

If we believe in Dragons and Trolls in-game, then there is already some level of fantasy accepted (not that it makes the concept any easier to accept). So let's get at this from another angle and ask the following question:

<b>How to special weapons get their characteristics?</b>

I believe that non-magical blades achieve "notoriety", if you will. They don't get any better over time, and are bound to the characteristics they were forged with.

Magical blades, in my mind, are forged with the intent for a special purpose, like Glamdring in LotR:TH. It's purpose always was to glow blue when goblins were near. It's purpose and use also never changed, nor did it gain any other names.

A third class of weapons might be weapons crafted in such a manner as to absorb characteristics of its vanquished victims over time, thus using it specifically for killing orcs would have it assume a minimum amount of anti-orc characteristics at each kill, eventually leading to a weapon that would gain a name, and during further usage would gain a second attribute that would reflect its level of anti-orc quality. These blades would also have to be magical, at least in part, and would have to be crafted with the intent of absorbing (or gaining) special attributes depending on its victims.

As to a special weapon like this gaining multiple purposes would water it's effectiveness down (say anti-orc anti-goblin sword) and would only make it marginally more effective than normal weapons. Kind of like a skill cap: the sword can only gain so much specialization, lets say 100 points. Each kill might give it one point in a specialization. So if you take your magical sword with you and kill everything with it, you will have a very low specialization, where-as if you only use it to kill orcs, you will only gain orc specialization, making it much more effective.

I agree with you, Bowen, that using organic and inorganic materials doesn't really make sense. However, if we assume mythical beasts, we also need to assume mythical weapons (I don't think you disagree with that).

 

Can you repost that in the "Item Properties thread"?

Dragons may be mythical beasts but they don't necessarily have to have magical properties. In fact dragons in Ultima were never really more than big fire breathing lizards. Well post U3 anyway.

Though I have to disagree at Glamdring's purpose was to glow blue. All elvish blades did that. I mean obviously it was intentional but I don't think there was ever any specific intent behind any one weapon except to be a weapon.

 

Just to point out in the crafting section, you are leaving out electropunk, and how tools can be used, and that it appears that tools will have durability when crafting, mining ect.
-I don't believe it applies to armor and weapons for it never said , indestructible founder weapons.

Update 16 $80 tier
NEW: You will receive 1 starter-level, indestructible, artisan's tool for the skill of your choice.

 

Back to this idea of time vs quality. One of the problems with many crafting skills is that plight of the apprentice - nobody wants a 50% sword. There is no demand for less than exceptional goods. The apprentice has no way of making any money and no market for his wares.

If time = quality then let a master reduce that time by incorporating items of lesser quality, buying up the output of the apprentices.