Does anyone else HATE the proposed card system??

Apparently if ive read right they plan on saying you can pick 3 cards or so then go out not knowing what your fighting, that does bother me because if my card are water based or something and im fighting a water ele for example im poorly prepared because the game made me poorly prepared, i think that is closer to the reason that alot of people are against it.

 

It's not 'three cards or so.' You set your deck with however many cards you want, though I am sure there will be an upper limit. The idea has been that more cards means more abilities, but a greater chance that you don't get the one you need for that moment. And you probably will know what you are going to be fighting to a certain extent, since you will be somewhat familiar with that area. Otherwise, you can swap out your selected deck either outside or inside of combat (for a penalty).

 

who said there concern had anything to do with it being turn based. Yes I would hate that but at least that would make sense.

No my concern has to do with the fact that

a) you are making the UI highly intrusive because instead of tying your spells to specific buttons and memorising that so you don't HAVE to look at the Quick use bar. Instead the quick use bar is going to constantly be changing so you have no choice but to look SPECIFICALLY at the UI

b) spells you need for specific cirumstances like heal wont be avilable when you need them

c) its just about as far from reality as you can get

d) its just not going to be fun for the above, instead it will be an annoyance

 

Here's what they told us regarding the card system:
the cards will represent skills we know. They go into a deck we customize that will have a minimum size and a maximum size for the deck. These cards will appear before us randomly. The number of cards we see at one time depends upon what type of armor you have on etc.

You can skew the odds in your favor by having multiple copies of a particular skill in the deck rasing the likely hood it will appear more often.

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A little bit of random is okay, but there should be some kind of expectation that we will have the skill we need at the right time. I don't see this as much of a problem for warriors, but this system for mages I don't see how it will be useful at all. It will the the scapegoat for each combat loss in PvP and will be the focus of all negative talk in this game unless it can be done right.

Get rid of the random element and I think the problem is solved for me. Or if they just don't use this system for spells at all and keep it only for combat skills then I won't ***** as much thats for sure. I would really like to play a mage, but I most certainly will not play one if I don't have a reasonable expectation of casting the spell I want when I want it. Also we have to be able to master all or at least most of the schools of magic if we want to be a pure mage. If it is not possible to master more than one or two schools that is also a deal breaker for the mage for me.

 

You know what the axe being a bludgeon weapon is Dev+. I just looked it up and that's a dev+ thread. I wouldn't worry about it I think it would have been common knowledge soon anyway. It may have already been released. Either way just know they do have some detailed (And I mean very detailed) descriptions of the combat, magic, and crafting in a couple of mega posts.

If you don't have dev+ become a citizen and get your rent free land plot and join in the converstaions. Once you get rent free housing you're one of the cool guys. lol

 

uuugh! thanks for the info, im starting to really not like the way the game is heading it wouldve been nice to know they were talking about a deck system before i pledged, ill try and hang in there and see what really happens!

 

Look at how old the first post on this thread is. They've been talking about the system forever.

It's slowly leaking out, but everything is subject to change. If something is on the dev site and not here, I assume it's really just brainstorming to get feedback. It has a long, long way to go.

 

yeah i shouldve researched better instead of just saying he made UO which i love so this should be just as good! or was that the right decision? at least ill get a little cool collectors box out of it

 

Well, too much QQ and too many excuses in here for me. I'll be backing out of this convo now, would just appreciate it if you could all just hold onto your junk and wait until there is something actually tangible to complain about.

 

Unfortunately I don't have that kind of money ($550 is a lot for a poor university student). Considering the fact that they haven't done a new video on combat in quite some time, I would expect that it would be coming out soon...seeing as the combat system is an integral component to the game. I'm sure the developers will alter their position depending upon the feedback they receive.

 

And this is the nature of development. We're seeing it happen in real time here and are being allowed in the discussion. Argue your point constructively as they are listening. This just happens to be one of the most contentious and divisive topics currently. Just wait till they announce the PvP system. I'm sure they just can't wait to see that "discussion"

 

they've been talking about it for a while but just started working on it reciently. We asked months ago to start discussing it back then, but instead they just dropped the idea on us that it would be random and there would be a bit of luck involved in the system.

If they told us that months ago we would have had a lot of time to let them know LUCK isn't the way we want combat to go. I personally think they are wasting their time with the luck system. Starr said they had time allocated for moving to a more traditional method for combat. Hopefully they can use this innovative system, and give us some control back. It would be ashame for them to spend months invain working on something that isn't going to fly even if it does have an element of fun. Especially since many will get use to the system and think it's great without thinking big picture. Then arguements will spring up trying to defend the system saying it is fun then how the hell are we going to get out of this luck system after that?

The problem with the luck system is it can be fun... so is Texas Holdem. However I don't want to lose a combat because somebody got lucky. Texas holdem has a little bit of taunting when you win... but they know it's luck. What kind of taunting will there be when they say Oh I just killed Isaiah the loud mouth from the threads, and I'll just have to sit there and take it because I cant go through the computer to strangle the f***** and express the unbelievable luck it took for him to pull off that super combo at the last second. This is an example why the system cannot be implemented even if there is still an element of fun. Because there will be people who like the system. I just hope there will be many more who think about the big picture who will argue against it. The problem is that it's going to get a lot of people angry either way it's implemented now. However I truly believe it's a mistake to implement a completely luck based skill system, and for spells it's a sad system.

 

Deck combat was mentioned before the KS close. Not sure how much they talked up the random portion but this has been a consistant vision. I know there is a lot of videos and content to go through, especially from back then, but they have been open about their plan for combat since the beginning.

(Direct Time 40m 13s)
youtube.com/watch?v=RzQdey9hv24&feature=share&t=40m13s

 

I really don't believe that the time spent on fully developing the initial combat concept would ever truly be 'in vain'.
Regardless of how development may turn as we go through the Alpha and Beta, making something 'new' and having it work in tandem with all the other great features of the game we have already been shown would be an amazing feat.

We're comparing the system to things like MTG and Megaman Battle Network, but from this conceptual stage... the only game I can think of that comes even close to something similar is Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (or the 3D remake on KH2 Final Mix). I wouldn't really describe the system in KH:CoM as 'Random Luck', but the system there has a much faster 'twitch' pace than I assume most Ultima players are comfortable with. Until we see combat first-hand with the skill system in place it's hard to conceptualize what it'll really be like.

The work put into classifying skills, determining damage ratios and effect timing, all that stuff can always be repurposed and reused in whatever way the devs want to use them, and there are always unique things they can add to change the combat dynamic, from single purpose consumable items to speciality 'cards' that completely breaks the normal system for a duration - anything is possible once you get a system in place to handle all the intended variables of combat you want handled.

 

fast twitch isn't exactly what I was hoping for, but I don't mind fast twitch as much as I do the random component. I can do fast twitch (although I think with the peer to peer system they are implementing, they might want to avoid fast twitch as much as possible due to latency)!

Umbrae is right they've been talking about this combat system since the beginning, but the part of it being random was only revealed about a month ago, and very recently they said the magic system would also be governed by it for now.

They said they want our feedback, and that was one of the big reasons they wanted to do Kickstarter. So rather than being conservative with your opinions, tell them exactly what you are thinking. Maybe some people will really be pissed off at you, but what is important? Is it important that people like your online presence or that the game get the best feedback and be super successful?

Portalrium isn't going to get their feelings hurt by honest criticism especially if the feedback has a bitchen return on investment. It would be wise if they didn't hold any negative criticism against any individual and take each comment in it's context with all the others. It can be fun and it can be business at the same time. If they went to a publisher for SotA they would still get some feedback they didn't like, and they would have to do what they say. In this situation it is win win. They don't have to do what we say, but the feedback is coming directly from the fan base. Some ideas are bad some are good, and some have a big picture view. They can take what they believe is the best ideas and spit out the sticks.


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I am the first to admit that not all of my ideas were good ones. I look back on some of them and say that kind of sucks but who knows what good ideas spring up from bad ones? So we ought to share if we care.

Do I think the game will still be good if the combat system is random, the short answer is yes. On the other hand I think it will be far more enjoyable if the combat system wasn't random. You lose too much (especially in PvP) when you die. It isn't funny when you get killed and looted, then add the additional frustration of losing by luck. Maybe the devs didn't think about that because they were thinking about how cool it would be to make an awesome comeback. I don't blame the devs for that. It is always cool to have a quick comeback and let the underdog have a chance...

The reality is that you could win 10x, but the one loss is a far more intense feeling. ASK ANY PVPer that question. If even one in 4 of my losses are becaus of luck I would stop PvPing. The better player should win, and strategy should be allowed to be more focused on your tactical output and not as much on your precombat input because we need to be flexible in combat. Luck always still comes into play but that should be the rare occurance. That's my opinion.

 

You are making way too many assumptions. We dont even know if there is looting on death in PvP yet even, so you can't get upset about possible outcomes. Just wait for Alpha when you can test it and then actually give them concrete feedback.

I didn't know you were so big on PvP either, I thought you were more like Asguard. I'll be looking for you in game do see how our "luck" decides our battles for us

 

I've been thinking about this all week, and read almost all comments '98%'. I'm going to word this simply, and I hope it doesn't sound too 'brutal' and 'negative'. I still think the card/random system is not the way to go. Why create such cool things, only to make it all random... I couldn't think of anything more annoying. I was thrilled to see all the spells, and combat details etc... until I found out about card/combat/random side of things. My enthusiam in this area plummeted straight to zero. I believe the Dev's truly want our feedback, well, positive or negative, we are giving it to you. Please listen. I'd like a spellbook, I flick through, I pick a spell, I cast it. Done. I want to slash, or block, I do, done. I want to drink a healing potion, I click one, done.

What I think is great is adapting proficiency only in those areas in which you are the most active.

I absolutely love all of the games concepts and themes so far apart from two that stand out as 'NQR – not quite right':

1. Randomised card combat
2. Randomised hexes

What if random/decks etc can be applied to 'chaos magic' and specific areas of combat, with a bit of mixing and variation here and there where needed, whilst the rest of the combat system remains traditional and fully under player control. But under specific circumstances where a player is being hammered or facing annihilation, and is under a lot of duress or overwhelmed then the random/deck comes in to show their frailty, shaken confidence and bewilderment which then effects their thinking/judgement and all spells/abilities or calls up the chosen deck. Is there a way to combine the two into a workable mix so we have at least combat/spells under our complete control, whereas other parts of the combat revert to the deck/random depending on the situation the player is faced with or their condition. Maybe a 'blissful wedded union' of the two systems will make a stronger combat system than just one or the other on its own. Because both systems have their merit, and advocates. Just a thought.


Example:


“During a particularly bloody battle a hulking brute slams a two-handed hammer into your torso. The tremendous impact crushes your breastplate, cracking your lower ribs: winded, and stunned - the intense pain clouds your judgement, and your eyes water, hence calling into play the random/deck scenario until you regain composure... or die, or fall comatose, etc”


“Example: One of your comrades has fallen by your side on the battlefield, struck dead by a Lych's magical arrow: depending on your constitution there is a chance you could be overcome by fear and lose the will to fight, thus calling the deck; or; a chance your previous experiences on the battlefield will keep you hardy, resolute, and focused and in control.”

Idea: As an adventurer advances in age, and accrues battle scars- a tolerance to pain and bloodshed is adapted, hence the deck is called far less often than an adventurer caught in battle with little to know experience.

Something like that.

Also, I'm hoping they weren't serious about randomising all of the hexes too. I couldn't think of anything worse than entering a hex, leaving, than entering again a split second later to find it had completely changed. I pray to virtue that they simply mean it changes over a long period of time, like a murmuring brook may break its banks and swell into a raging river when mountain rain makes its way down to the flood-planes following prolonged stormy weather, forming new tributaries, but nothing as radical as changing the entire topography randomly. That is my opinion.

I think I'd rather we were all playing the same game, not a random generator. If anybody says there will be random dungeons... errmmm just don't ever say that lol

 

great post I'm glad I'm not alone on this. I think we should just go forward with alpha testing and be truly honest with them. Any system can be fun for a while but this is something we all will have to live with in this game. I spent far too much to simply want to stop playing a few weeks after the release.

As for the other fella up there griping about me being PvP... Yes, I am going to be flagged for PvP. I don't know if I'm going to be as focused on PvP as I was in UO, but even if I say that now I know I'll get sucked in anyway. If PvP is like WoW or the random elements make it as frustraiting as WoW then I won't want to pvp. However I still managed to do quite a bit of the battle ground stuff in WoW eventhough I couldn't stand it. However that game is all about grinding, and I'm a powergamer type so I cannot resist doing something to help max out my guy.

 

Ok thanks to Umbrae for posting that video (which was long,but good to watch to kill time when at work) anyhow upon completeing this video heres what i got from it..........

you will still be able to basically run around and click and attack, but in addition to that youll have a deck of cards with you that will have cards popping up during that combat and you ll pick and choose from them, some cards when put together create powerful attacks, blocks moves etc.., so it could be neat, but the skill involved at higher levels is basically more cards added to your deck, that to me is not really skill, i still dont agree that somone thats" lower level"could possibly kill you because of the deck you have, or luck that just doesnt make any sense?! heres a scenario " you have nice armor and weapons youve worked hard to get, some newb decides he wants to pvp he has a wooden sword and leather armor, and it just so happens his cards are lucky and yours are not, he wins that battle and you lose your stuff, so why have you played the game so long to get better at your skill, just to turn around and have it thrown in your face because of a new combat system???? If i never pk'd in my life at this point in game i would be pk'ing everyone that came across, with cheap inexpensive armor, no need to go kill something (or quest ) to get great armor or weapons because no matter what you have as far as experience in game or nice armor and weapons all that is null and void in combat!?

Keep in mind that this is the way i see it, so instead of smart ass comments and trying to start a fight (i may lose because luck is not in my deck, and it wont matter if i played MMOs or adventure type RPGs for 30 years experience doesnt matter) Try to enlighten me on why this combat system is so good
, is it becuase now the newb - is equal to somone whos been playing longer and has better stuff (keep in mind if we have nice stuff we earned it through time in) whatever happend to learning to crawl before you walk? I think the problem nowadays is people want to get stuff free with no work or time spent on it, So heres the fist Avatar Quest get me to understand why this combat system is good?

 

My solution for people that dont pvp, dont PVP! I promise (if my cards are luckier than yours!) you come in my land of PvP ill teach you what its all about! Im tired of the boo hoo, im gonna get killed crap, and all that, ive accepted the system of cards eventhough i hardly agree with it, and ill pvp with what happens to be part of that, but i will pvp with whatever tools are given to me by game.