Episode 2 – Player Built Dungeons: What we know and additional thoughts

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Oakenhammer, Jul 26, 2018.

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  1. Oakenhammer

    Oakenhammer Avatar

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    What we know so far…
    • Enter through an entrance on a property—there will be a variety of entrance options (crypt, tree stump, hatch, etc.)
    • Players will be placed in the dungeon at a predetermined starting point
    • The dungeon will be composed of a series of pieces such as passageways and rooms
    • Dungeon pieces and components can be crafted and some more ornate versions will be available in the store
    • Each piece has connection points that are used to join them together—if nothing is currently connected to a particular connection point, that point is shown as sealed
    • To edit a dungeon, the player must enter the dungeon in edit mode. Then must completely leave the dungeon to change into play mode
    • Encounter rooms (e.g. ones that can have spawns), will have restricted decoration areas to prevent exploitation
    Updates from Aug 3 R56 Livestream
    • Rather than restricting players to either a dungeon or a basement, the team is exploring possibly adding a connection point within basements that could be used as the starting point for the dungeon (as always, don't lawyer them, this is still up for debate and tech feasibility)
    • The size of the dungeon won't be restricted to the same footprint as the basements, but there will be limits on how large a dungeon can be based upon the lot size.
    • Dungeon size will be measured by "points"
    • An 8m x 8m x 5m space is the standard unit of measurement of the existing kits and will represent 1 "point"--a room that is 3 x 3 units will cost 9 points
    • As an example, the Soltown Sewers is roughly 120 points
    • Proposed starting point levels: Row 50, Village 100, ... , Castle 350
    • Increasing the point limit will be possible through a system similar to bank upgrades using gold and the price will increase as more upgrades are purchased--probably also make some upgrades available in the add-on store
    • On the technology side, the dungeon system will make use of the deco system for verification and serialization with the game server
    Updates from Aug 7 Chris' Daily Work Blog

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ris-daily-work-blog.85584/page-8#post-1114425
    Did I miss anything?

    This system is still in early development, so there is a lot of opportunity to contribute. Below are my thoughts thus far…

    We know we’ll need to gather components and rather than clog up everyone’s regular loot tables with these new components, we could limit it to those actively seeking them with an item like this:

    Talisman of the Dungeon Keeper (necklace) – when worn, grants the ability to collect dungeon components. Cost: 1,000 gold

    Not only would this give us some new tech to trigger actions based upon what we are wearing (so many future possibilities for the player created questing system), but it would also allow for the drop rates to be adjusted a bit higher since the drops could be balanced around a smaller population segment.

    Or the above could instead be a new craftable artifact that gives a bonus to the drop rates.

    @Chris @DarkStarr @Lord British Before I get too far into the details, I am proposing a slight deviation from what was discussed in the livestream. I think we should separate the dungeon spaces themselves from their contents. By that, I mean we should craft a large mausoleum room rather than a lich room. We can then populate that mausoleum with a lich, a necromancer, or whatever.

    This key distinction still allows the dungeon components to be designed such that they cannot be exploited, it maximizes the creative opportunity for us to use this toolset, and it prevents the need for recipes for every possible combination of space and mob type. Below are the finer details of how I propose the system working in this manner.

    Dungeon Piece Construction

    Dungeon piece are constructed of materials that can be gathered or created through crafting skills so it furthers interdependency between players. The dungeon pieces represent a collection of passageways and rooms that connect together.
    • Themes
      • Sewers (example: Brittany Sewers)
      • Fortress (example: Hilt)
      • Mine (example: Etceter Crag Mines)
      • What else?
    • Example Recipes
      • Dungeon Stone Corridor Straight (smelting) – 250x Granite, 30x Iron Binding, 2x Iron Wall Lamp
      • Dungeon Mine Shaft T-Intersection with Rails (smelting) – 50x Timber, 20x Explosive Potion, 4x Iron Wall Lamp, 20x Iron Binding
    In the event that the existing themes don’t naturally connect, it would be ideal for some transition pieces to be created to further increase flexibility of the system.

    Dungeon Space Configuration

    This is the key concept of the design. While in edit mode, in the center of every dungeon piece is a control object (orb, diamond, whatever) that stores the configuration settings for that space. Players can interact with the control object to define the spawn types, resources, and/or treasures that are present.

    Of important note is that the behavior of spawns and presence of resources and/or treasures are at the discretion of Portalarium in how each of the spaces is configured. We as players use Dungeon Cards (more on that later) to make our customizations. This ensures that the spaces cannot be exploited and gives players a wide range of configurable options to customize the experience.

    [​IMG]

    Each space can be configured with one or more Dungeon Card slots. These slots can be independent, dependent on others, and arranged into hierarchies. Each slot is associated to a particular spawn point within the space and pre-defined behavior.

    The overall configuration of each space can be a combination of independent, dependent, and hierarchical slots. Additionally, each space may have multiple configuration options available to select from.

    As players we have the option to deviate from the configuration options in a number of ways:
    • We can elect to not place any Dungeon Cards into the available slots and the space will populate as empty. We will forego any challenge and reward that space would have provided.
    • We can place a Dungeon Card that does not meet the requirements. We will not unlock any dependencies. The space will populate with our limited selection.
    • We can place Dungeon Cards that meet the requirements for each path in the dependency hierarchy, which will unlock dependencies. It is up to the player to determine how far down a dependency hierarchy they wish to fill. The space will populate with the selections made.
    • We can place Dungeon Cards that exceed the slot requirements. This will increase the difficulty and rewards.
    Dungeon Cards are defined by a variety of characteristics:
    • Category / Sub-Category
      • Connection – controls movement into, out of, and through the space
        • Breakable Wall
        • Gate
        • Magic Barrier
        • Etc.
      • Adversary – hostile to players and make up the bulk of encounters in a dungeon
        • Undead
        • Human
        • Elemental
        • Etc.
      • Ally – not hostile to players and serve as a refuge against adversaries
        • Soldier
        • Guard
        • Healer
        • Provisioner
        • Etc.
      • Resource – raw material
        • Ore
        • Wood
        • Reagent Plants
        • Etc.
      • Treasure – reward
        • Treasure Chest
        • Treasure Pile
        • Reliquary
        • Etc.
    • Size
      • Small – fits in any space or passageway
        • Adversaries & Allies – skeleton, human soldier, kobold, etc.
        • Resource – ore node, wood pile, etc.
        • Treasure – treasure chest
      • Medium – fits in most spaces, but not all passageways
        • Adversaries & Allies – may be composed of more than one unit. (e.g. humanoid with pet, skeleton pack)
        • Resource – multiple reagent plants
        • Treasure – treasure pile
      • Large – fits only in spaces with higher ceilings and is typically too large for standard passageways
        • Adversaries & Allies – trolls, demons, etc.
      • Huge – only fits in the largest of spaces or outdoors
        • Adversaries & Allies – dragons, phoenix, reapers, etc.
    • Tier
      • Tier 1 to 10+ – aligned with the standard tier definitions that determine difficulty and rewards
      • Boss – additional specialized distinction only for Adversaries and Allies that reflects an exceptional strength for their tier. These units can be given customized names.
    Special Notes Regarding Treasures – the treasure Dungeon Cards represent a % chance of a treasure spawning in the defined space with higher tiers increasing the chance. Additionally, there is a chance the spawned treasure would instead be a mimic. Slots for treasures can only exist in a dependency hierarchy below where Adversary slots are present.

    Special Notes Regarding Resources – the resource Dungeon Cards represent a % chance of a resource note being present in the defined space with higher tiers increasing the chance and respawn rate. Slots for resources can only exist in a dependency hierarchy below where Adversary slots are present.

    Here are some basic examples of the system in practice:
    • Straight Passageway – 1x independent Tier 1 Adversary slot
      • This demonstrates a patrolling adversary in a hallway
    • Medium Room – two-level hierarchy with 4x Tier 4 Adversary slots linking to 1x Tier 4 Treasure slot
      • This demonstrates a space with 4 enemies and a treasure chest off to the side
    • Medium Room – three-level hierarchy with 3x Tier 5 Adversary slots linking to 1x Gate Connection linking 1x Tier 4 Treasure slot
      • This demonstrates a space with 3 enemies that must be defeated before the gate to the treasure unlocks
    • Ore Room – two-level hierarchy with 4x Tier 5 Undead Adversary slots linking to 8x Tier 5 Ore Resource slots
      • This demonstrates a space consistent with existing ore rooms found in the Tier 5 mines
    • Large Room – three-level hierarchy with 6x Tier 5 Adversary slots linking to 6x Tier 5 Adversary slots linking to 1x Boss Adversary slot
      • This demonstrates a space with two waves of minions followed by a final boss
    [​IMG]

    Dungeon Card Crafting

    In order to craft the needed dungeon cards, we’ll need some new ingredients like these:

    Components
    • Basic Types
      • Raw Essence – obtained from mining and fishing, collected from golems
      • Wild Essence – obtained from field dressing any animal (bears, wolves, boars, spiders, etc.)
      • Living Essence – obtained from forestry and foraging, collected from non-animals (slimes, reapers, clockwork, living plants, etc.)
      • Undead Essence – collected from any undead (skeletons, zombies, liches, etc.)
      • Elemental Essence – collected from any elementals (fire, water, air, earth, etc.)
      • Mysterious Essence – collected from treasure chests and mimics
    • Basic Type Strength
      • Essence Spark – Tier 1 to Tier 2
      • Lesser Essence – Tier 2 to Tier 3
      • Essence – Tier 3 to Tier 4
      • Greater Essence – Tier 5+
    • Basic Type Conversion
      • Up Conversion: 10 to 1
      • Down Conversion 1 to 5
    • Special Types
      • Lich Phylactery – collected from liches
      • Bottled Dragon’s Fire – collected from dragons
      • Reaper Heartwood – collected from reapers
      • Obsidian Essence – collected from obsidian golems
      • Etc.
    • Example Recipes
      • Skeleton (Tier 1) – 1x undead essence, 30x skeleton bone, 150x corpse wax
      • Hardened Skeleton (Tier 5) – 10x greater undead essence, 1x iron plate helm, 30x skeleton bone, 150x corpse wax
      • Zombie (Tier 3) – 5x lesser undead essence, 150x rotting flesh
      • Lich (Tier 5) – 10x greater undead essence, 1x lich skull, 1x lich phylactery, 30 skeleton bone, 150x corpse wax
      • Treasure (Tier 5) – 10x greater mysterious essence, 1x wooden chest, 1000 gold, 5 gems
      • Dragon (Tier 10 Boss) – 25x greater living essence, 1x bottled dragon’s fire, 1x dragon head, 4x dragon neck bone, 8x dragon haunch
    All of the above is presented as a concept accessible to all within game for free, but I would be remiss to not at least mention the potential opportunities for premium content. As has been stated, the goal of premium content is not to sell functionality, but rather “sell cool.” Here are a few ideas:
    • Premium Rooms
      • Large Lava Room (same as used on level 4 of Etceter Crag Mines and right before Obsidian Forge)
      • Crystal Chamber (same as in level 4 of Etceter Crag Mines)
    • Premium Dungeon Cards
      • Blue Phoenix
      • Obsidian Skeletons
      • Green Magic Barrier
    If you’ve made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post and I look forward to reading your feedback and contributions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  2. MrBlight

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    This should be implemented as soon as possible for design testing and fleshing out of players ideas.

    This could literally be a major turning and selling feature for SoTa if done right.

    Dont put in a weak mechanic here and this could be huge.
     
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  3. Mykll

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    Does the dungeon replace the basement, or do we get both for a single lot?

    Is the dungeon size limited by lot size?

    Will there be a dungeon mover thing like there is houses?
     
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  4. nonaware

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    it should be on a QA like server open almost all of the time imo for testing you only get so many chances.
     
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  5. Bambino

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    We had a system similar to this on a WIP gray Ultima Server called In Por Ylem 3 (IPY3). As an Alpha tester on this server, I got to experience this dungeon building first hand.

    Check out some media coverage here.

    Great ideas from Oakenhmer. However, IMO, I really hope other features are considered before this task is taken on. Basements are barley accessed by other players as it is. There are much more pressing issues that need to be addressed before this system is even considered or talked about further.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  6. Womby

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    I can see that there might be a temptation for that to be the case, as an incentive for players to spend money on larger lots.
    I think that would be a mistake, as even town sized boundaries would be severely restrictive for anyone attempting to build an interesting dungeon.
    All of the existing dungeons, sewers and mines already in the game are far larger than even a keep sized basement.
    Instead, if they want to give people an incentive to buy larger lots, it would make more sense to tie the number of placeable building components to the lot size.
    Maybe the number of building components could be like the number of placeable lots in different sized POTs.

    Having said that, they should if anything err on the side of generosity. They don't need more bad publicity.
     
  7. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    I want it now!
     
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  8. Katu

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    Curious to see, how they handle economy hit with those. Maybe no loot and xp.
    Or loot but owner has to pay for it.
     
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  9. Aartemis

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    Monster rooms will give loot and XP. Probably any chest reward or quest will all be player donated. This is from a conversation I had with Chris a couple weeks ago. Again, DLMB, but thats the plan.

    Here is the more exciting part, we're going to make the so you can create rooms that are "Encounter rooms". These can be placed but can't be deco'd because they will actually contain spawners that can generate creatures worth XPS and have loot.
     
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  10. Aartemis

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    By using the combination of Containers, NPC Quests (New System) and these custom dungeons, we are going to have the ability to really make some unique things. Just a few examples:

    • If you are a really good builder, and offer a lot of loot in your dungeons, perhaps you charge for admission... Using a chest with one in, one out capability you could give out dungeon entrance keys in exchange for say a COTO.
    • Linking dungeons should be possible, where you can't enter dungeon #2 unless you have a key or item from completing Dungeon #1. This could also create quests that tie PoT's and even NPC towns together in epic stories!
    • There is also the possibility of Player Owned Town Dungeons. These would be much larger in scale Chris mentioned. Something the town could collaborate on and support. It would not be bound to a players lot.
    This is a very exciting time. The Society of Dungeoneering and Cartography still holds a Royal Warrant for our early work with SOTA and the Underground Maps. I with more of our work would have gotten in, but it was not the time. Now I think we might want to revisit the Society as we look to welcoming this new system.
     
  11. ErikRulez

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    I hope we get bigger spaces than our current lot sizes, maybe by a factor of 2 or 4? You've got to remember that once this is in place, there will be an explosion of free development and testing work being done by volunteers. It would be a bad idea to hamstring their efforts with a small area to use (game performance willing).
     
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  12. ErikRulez

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    They might also consider giving us a way to "save" dungeons so we can rotate and replace easily without having to do the work of rebuilding them every time. Say if you wanted to have a particular dungeon for Halloween or April Fools day. You would just have to choose it out of a thing similar to the property manager and then maybe tweak it with new stuff for that year. When you're done, you just pack it up and put your normal dungeon back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2018
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  13. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    +1 for the concepts, OP.

    Devs, please make something worthwhile! Please make something dynamic! Please TAKE MY MONEY.

    If done right, this could bring in a lot of money for the game.

    I would even spin up a separate QA server just for this feature and have us test it for months before putting it in to production.

    Go, Portalarium!!! Shroud of the Avatar: The Ultimate Sandbox.
     
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  14. MrBlight

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    Also make it so dungeons can be accessed from town crier.. instead of having to hope someones wanrering a town looken at basements or something stupid.

    This done right and not slack would really reaallly be one of those uniqur features that sota could pride itself on. If done wrong itll just be done in other games properly. Just IMO
     
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  15. DeadnGone

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    Awesome write-up by @Oakenhammer and totally agree with @MrBlight that this could be a real game changer. I've always enjoyed trying out others dungeons & adventures in other games like Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Online, for example. I think with the way Oakenhammer has put it, that there is the possibility for even the least creative players to make some nice content to enjoy, while those that have a passion for this will probably churn out some truly spectacular adventures. As excited as I am for ships, naval combat, fishing enhancement, treasure hunting, etc... this one really has me pumped. Even gives additional reasons to explore towns. Would be nice if they kept stats as well like # of attempts, completions, mobs killed, players killed etc too!
     
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  16. majoria70

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    I do feel dungeon creation could be a fun creation for this game if done right and learning from other games what makes this something players will even do once you create the dungeon. My concern is that for example using everquest 2 dungeon making to me was a failure. It was fun for a moment to create but there were so many of them around and not enough incentive to do. I got bored with them fast and moved on to other game content. I know everquest 2 and Neverwinter dungeon builder was set up differently with Neverwinter having ability to write out Quests giving more purpose to it. I don't see it as a cure all to this game to give more population but every thing added in is another thing for players to enjoy if done well. I think it would need to be considered what makes these dungeons fun and the rewards from doing them. What are players getting out of it to have then be a rewarding, satisfying and fun thing to continue to do? So this is an important conversation to have and some of us as players have experienced this first hand so I hope that will be an advantage to making these correctly. Look at our arena basements who uses them much and our cave basements? A perfectly good idea to be excited about at the time tho. They are mostly dead and not alive with features. So keep up the good conversation.
     
  17. Elrond

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    Interesting concept with the cards if i may suggest , instead of crafting the cards maybe make mobs drop them :

    - Kill a tier 1 skeleton - 5% chance to drop a tier 1 skel. card
    - Kill a tier 10 skel. - 5% chance to drop a tier 10 skel card
    -Kill a dragon - 1 % chance to drop a dragon card

    so on for every mob in the game .

    These cards can later be added on a dungeon.

    Assign a max number of creature /dungeon room ..more rooms more creatures you can fit ... assign points for each creature a dragon for example would eat up the space for 30 tier 10 creatures... this way we can have a limit on number of creatures we choose to place in our dungeons .

    Make dungeons interface to allow you to add creatures ..... once you added creature cards of x amount of points you can go in clear the dungeon ... to reenter the dungeon a second time you need to add cards/creatures again .

    We could have 2 ways to enter a dungeon for the owner in combat mode or build mode..in build mode you can run to every room and drop creatures in them from inventory until the creature limit is full ..a possible exploit i see here is some would probably try to place a big spawn in one single place ...to clear faster but if each room has limits....
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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  18. ErikRulez

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    I think enabling dungeon creators to tell a story through written messages, NPC conversations and perhaps area/event triggered notifications is almost as important as creating the rooms and encounters within the dungeon. They might also set up a rating/comment system for dungeons so players can rate/provide feedback(constructive of course) to help content creators see what is working an what isn't. Lastly, it might be a good idea to have a way to immortalize dungeons that both the players and devs think should be made a permanent part of the game. This would be done via invitation from the dev team and perhaps the creator would get a title and some kind of digital reward(s) to help them create more dungeons.
     
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  19. Proteus Tempest

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    I have not had many thoughts on this yet.

    I want it but the possibilities are numerous.

    Players being able to make dungeons? Awesome! However I think I would like to be able to make quests in general and not just underground.

    Fishing quests as an example. This would be great and myself and others would not be committed to building an entire dungeon. I eventually will but simple top ground quests are needed.


    How are we to get props for the quests be it in a dungeon or outside? If my quest starter npc is on a ship then I will need a ship prop of sorts. Do I build/buy this and can I decorate it or must I spend a ton of cash to buy a founder city deed and a ship to place on it to use in the quest?


    Just thinking
     
  20. nonaware

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    would be fun to be able to have a list of multiple spawn points to allow for races/ competitive / pvp experiences with teams or different individuals.
     
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