Etceter Crag Mines (spoilers)

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by Poor game design, Mar 6, 2016.

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  1. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    @Lum

    I enjoy the Etceter Crag Mines for what they could be. This scene is probably 95% done. It's really good, but for a few things that I'd like to address below. For all of these comments I'm speaking about the lowest level of the scene.
    It's late at night for me and I've just given up trying to complete this scene solo after dying for the 100th time (literally) to the Lich. So please excuse my word choice. I'm not trying to be snarky, just very direct and on point. I think the scene is very well done overall, it just requires a few tweaks.

    1. Ghosts: I loved the old ghosts. They were dark, scary, they did a lot of damage, they didn't give loot. They were my favorite monster in the game.

    Now ghosts are stupid. They stand still. You can see them plainly. They don't make noise. They give loot. They have a corpse (wtf!). They look like manikins without the pole.

    I know that many people didn't like the ghosts. I know you can't make everyone happy. But these ghosts are horrible horrible shells of what they once were. I can't begin to express my displeasure with this change. Please bring back the old ghosts, have them kill the new ghosts and bury them in the Hilt furnace.

    2. There are numerous spots on the ground that force you to jump over them to proceed. These areas are mainly where the tracks crisscross. This is not just annoying, it's painfully annoying. Trying to run away from a Lich with 1100 hit points through that scene and getting stuck every 5 seconds is crazy rage annoying. Please smooth out the walk ways to allow for "running for your life".

    3. There is a hint on the portal doors that reads something like "look for a trio of letters" or something like that. It's a horrible hint. I've gotten the liches to come out of those doors and I don't even know what it's supposed to mean. It might as well say "don't forget to mow the lawn".

    Apparently it's supposed to mean "Look for a trio of words" as in "For the Best" the title of the book you need to get the liches to come out? I don't know because I can't kill the main lich. Please fix this hint. It feels like a placeholder that could use some polish. Perhaps this is scheduled to happen again when you guys reach this region in the development cycle?

    4. I can't kill this lich. I can ROAST the Lich Mage. But I can't kill that damn lich. I'm going to have to get help from someone else and here's why.

    The Lich is immunne to corpse explosion.
    The Lich doesn't care about my death magic attunement (the Lich Mage sure did).
    The Lich has 1100+ hit points.
    The Lich is designed for people to kill with Fire, Sun, or Life magic. I don't have any of that.

    I know this is a balance issue beyond your control, Lum. But I would suggest providing a way for a solo player using only Death Magic to complete this mission. I even tried buying all the Explosive Potions I could find. The Lich laughed at those.

    Really all that needs to happen, is the Lich (and other undead) should stop doing 111 points of damage to me using death magic (i.e. the attunement system should work correctly) and this would be a non-issue. But I think the Lich is not playing by the normal rules because it's a boss character, and that's the problem I see.

    5. I was sent by the Master of Death Magic to retrieve a book. But the stuff guarding the book is using Death Magic that I can't counter, and the only people that can wouldn't want that book in the first place. So the quest to get the book is kind of stupid. Hello seeker of Death Magic knowledge, I hope you're well practiced in other school's of magic because everything you know about Death Magic will be useless to you when you're trying to find this book! Now get on out there and maybe stop by the Master of Fire before you go too far.

    At this point, as much as I'm specialized in Death Magic, the Lich should open the door to me and hand me the book himself. But assuming that's not going to happen, I should be able to do as much damage to him as he's doing to me. I can dig that he's using a giant axe. But he's also using some kind of air magic to stun people. The whole thing needs reworked (liches). I really wish someone would go back, read a D&D monster manual and just fix these liches to act more like liches and not whatever they ware now. Giant walls of hit points that move around doing large amounts of damage to people that have high death attunement.

    I'm going to sleep now. :(
     
  2. Drocis the Devious

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    In addition...
    As I awoke today I realized I had forgotten to include two more pieced of feedback.

    1. The ghosts are an interesting part of the story (regardless of how I feel about the character model, sounds and other changes that were made). Each section of the sealed mine has pockets of skeletal remains, presumably from those who didn't make it out alive. It seems that there should be a ghost for every skeleton. That would help drive home the link between those that died and the remains the player sees. It's a small thing that I believe helps tell the story better. For balance reasons, you may also want to keep players from having to run into multiple ghosts at the same time.

    2. I feel the blocked portal to the lich area (that I presume only opens after you've killed the Lich) is a poor way to tell this story and it prevents the best option of all. Just sneaking into that area and figuring out what happened (getting the book, etc). That areas also looks like a better place to fight and offers more space without small corridors and tracks that get you stuck every other turn. I would challenge you guys to come up with a new way to conclude this quest other than just killing another monster and bringing back item A to NPC B. It seems like we have way too many of those quests at the moment.

    Here's a possible alternative for those looking to use the book to their own end. Allow them to steal the book without killing the lich. As they leave, the Lich says something like "I will find you and recover that which is mine!" Then when you go back to the death master in the woods (remember he told you not to read the book), if you opened it and read it, the lich returns and both the master and the lich attempt to kill you. If you didn't open it, the master helps you defeat the lich, but you will never know what the book says (and it's a relic that has some type of power that can be used otherwise).

    Having not completed this quest or killed the lich yet, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. We'll see. But for now, that's my feedback. Unfortunately, I have to go find someone that can help me now. Something that I would never be able to do in single player online mode.
     
  3. Jefe

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    I would assume that the Trio of Words is used to bring down the barrier. Tried using the book, tried just saying the words, tried clicking the phantom walls. So yes, a better indication of what to do there would be nice. There is stuff in that room. Just not sure what yet. Going to try a few more things.

    If the book "For The Best" is the key, then need to give a better indication as having a map of Owl's Head would lead me to believe I may need to track down stuff there first.

    That being said, I made him my Lich with ignite weapon etc. He drops the book, gold, reagent, as well as a skull sword which doesn't appear to be very fancy except for appearance 6% critical, 5-16 damage and parry.
     
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  4. Daxxe Diggler

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    BDF, I have several spare books from the named Lich and I would gladly give you one if I could... but they are untradeable. I can't sell them and I can't even destroy them... so I got a few in the bank just so I don't have to carry them around. I learned to stop looting them after a while.

    I have killed him solo many times though and would gladly explain how to do it or help you out if you want. I mine in there often anyway and will likely be there when you want to try it. :D

    I don't want to put spoilers in here, but I will say that getting past the portal is simple and fighting the lich in that room is the best approach.

    Whisper me in game next time you see me and I'll help you with this.
     
  5. Jefe

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    There are three skeletons that have letters on them scattered around the lower area with the Lich. When you collect those three, the barriers drop. The skeletons have no special markings on them. They just turn the mouse pointer green when you hover over them.
     
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  6. Daxxe Diggler

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    Correct!
     
  7. Drocis the Devious

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    Thanks, I looked with my eyes and not my mouse. :)

    I'll go back and see about getting in again.
     
  8. Drocis the Devious

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    You have to realize that I have only Death Magic...literally nothing else. You are not killing that thing with only death magic (no healing spells) unless maybe you've GM'ed everything.
     
  9. Smalls

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    Not that it helps with your reasoning, and wants for a relook at the lich. Ill be home around 3 cst msg me ill head down there with you and cut off it's head..Althou you will have to find the 3 letters on your own, as I wont show you.. Just when it is time to kill ill help you kill murder maul mame.. you name it..
     
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  10. Drocis the Devious

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    I appreciate the offer. I can hover over skeletons on my own. At this point I know that area as well as anyone, minus the unseen notes that you apparently need laser focus to discover.
     
  11. Drocis the Devious

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    Also, the end of the train tracks at this location: Area: Etceter Crag Mines (Novia_R2_Hills01_EtceterCragMines) Loc: (3.8, -49.5, 40.0)

    Those need to be removed. They're right by the only Ankh and it's very dark in there, so by the third time you die and you're stumbling over that thing it becomes really annoying. But by the 100th time you're ready to jump out a window. (maybe the ankh could be moved as an alternative?)
     
  12. Drocis the Devious

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    What I just realized was that the liches coming through the portal suggests to me that I've found everything and that I have to kill the liches to get through the portal. If the liches stayed in there, I'd have assumed I needed to look harder for the letters. This should change.
     
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  13. redfish

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    What do ghosts give as loot? Is it just ectoplasmic residue or something?
     
  14. Drocis the Devious

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    Uh no, it's gold corpse wax.

    The gold makes NO SENSE. But seriously I hate these new ghosts. Here's a ghost "corpse". What are we doing here?!
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. redfish

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    Corpse wax is human tissue that has turned into soap; that doesn't make sense on a ghost either. Ectoplasm would make some sense.

    At any rate, I understand people want some reward for killing a ghost. But seriously, the game doesn't have to be so mechanical about it. Instead of having corpses to be looted, some monsters could be guarding something. Perhaps its locked chests with loot, which I suggested for trolls. Which you could probably, of course, stealth. Or passageways, beyond which you find treasures; so the point there is that getting passed the monster would lead to further rewards.

    The devs need to think outside of the box. Its a role-playing game.
     
  16. Drocis the Devious

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    Ok, with the help of a friend I was able to complete the quest by killing the lich. The lich had the book. Great.

    I was able to find the letters on my own now that I understood they existed. But they were still extremely difficult to find. You basically had to run around hovering over every part of every skeleton, some of which I couldn't visibly make out where the letter was. It was very annoying and I think that also needs changed.

    Now for the book...

    I opened it, and although the text reads that I couldn't read anything and I now have a headache, there's no real impact to my character. I would love to see something, anything actually happen to my character. Afterall, the Master of Death warned me not to look at it. It would be nice if at a minimum the book gave me a debuff for like an hour. But ideally the opening the book would make it so the Master of Death refused to train me until I performed yet another action.

    With every risk though there should be a reward, and so opening the book should somehow have an advantage too.
     
  17. Daxxe Diggler

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    BDF, I wasn't bragging or anything like that. I was just stating that I've done it several times solo and could easily help you if you needed it.

    I've been through there dozens of times before the last wipe, and at least 20-30 times since the last wipe. I mainly do it so I can have a few extra rooms to mine (there is a breakable wall in the Lich room and 1 more level below that has crystals) so I don't have to wait around for nodes to respawn. So I spent a lot of time learning that mine like the back of my hand and picked up quite a few tricks to make it all run smoother.

    I'll share what I've learned below:

    1. As you progress through the mines, double click on all of the lanterns hanging in the hallways. If/when you die, you will be able to see much better to make your way back to the Ankh.
    2. The Ankh is set in the room with the ladder you descended from the floor above. You should also notice that all the railroad tracks on the ground lead to a dead end, or back to the Ankh room. So if/when you die, look on the ground and follow the tracks back to the Ankh room.
    3. All the mobs down there have an AOE life drain spell. The more players/pets that are near them, the more they heal themselves with it. If you are not solo, keep other players and pets attacking at a distance and have only 1 person tanking it.
    4. Searing Ray (Sun magic) and Banish Undead (Life magic) work well against undead, and any air magic (stuns are a bonus) or water magic spells are good supplements. If you are only trained in Death magic, I hope you have some good melee weapon skills as they are pretty resistant to death magic, and even when you hit them, you don't get the life drain portion yourself so you need to rely on life heals instead. When you get to the Lich's, Torpid Torment (Chaos magic) and the combo made from Banish Undead (Life) and Soothing Rain (Water) are very helpful. The first one seems to be a pretty strong DOT health drop on them and the 2nd one does a smaller DOT, but WILL also give you a small Heal over Time. Oh, and it doesn't hurt to eat some food before going down there either. It's only +1 health regen still, but it's better than nothing. NOTE: DO NOT LOOT THE GHOSTS OR THEY MAY RESPAWN. Leave them until after you kill the Liches.
    5. The letters needed to open the purple barrier are always on the same 3 skeletons.
      1. When you break through the four thousand (exaggerated) breakable walls to get to the main tunnels, go right (kill the ghost if it's there) then left to see the closed purple barrier. The skeleton closest to the barrier, on your right, will have the first note.
      2. Go back to the tunnel entrance and pass it. Make the first right (don't forget to turn on the lanterns) then another right. There may be a ghost here, if not, continue to follow the tracks left and there will be another ghost to fight. When you see the tracks split left and right, there will be 2 skeletons on the ground. The one on the left side will have the 2nd note. Grab it, but follow the tracks to the right.
      3. As you turn right at the split, there should be a quick left, follow this to another split. There will be another ghost here, so kill that and look on the ground. You will see a couple more skeletons on the ground at this split. Again, the one on the left side has the last note. When you have all 3 in inventory, the purple barrier will fade and allow you to pass.
    6. Killing the Lich Mage and the named Lich is much easier to do in the room they are in. As you enter this room, run straight across and run up the first flight of stairs. When you run up onto the stairs, the named Lich will exit the room from where you entered, and travel through the tunnels to get you from the top side. This leaves the mage there alone for you to kill first. This is very important and makes it much easier.
      1. Kill the mage ASAP. You can run down the stairs to melee it for a brief moment, but any time you are off that flight of stairs, the named Lich will come back to help out. If you see him coming back into the room, run back up the stairs and he will leave again.
      2. Root the mage, fire every ranged attack you have at him, melee when you have nothing else available (attack from behind if he's rooted). Again, Torpid Torment and the rain combo are great for this if you have them.
      3. When the mage dies, LOOT IT ASAP! If the named sees the mage dead, he will rez the mage and make you start all over. 8-(
      4. When the named is alone, same tactics as the mage. Lure him into the center of the room by standing just off the stairs. Root him, then run up to the top of the bottom flight of stairs and range attack until he starts running out of the room. Then go down the stairs to make him come back when you have more ranged stuff up (or when you have healed yourself enough to continue). He WILL NOT attack you when you are on the stairs unless you let him run all the way around to the other side. Sometimes he might if you were in melee with him right at the edge of the stairs, but you can then go up 1 more flight of stairs to get him to run out again.
      5. You can basically make him rubber band in and out of that room at your leisure, just by where you are standing. If you are pretty tough with good armor, you can melee tank him up close and then run up when you need a breather. Just rinse/repeat and you should be able to finish him with a bit of time and practice.
    7. I'm not positive, but I think that when you kill/loot the named Lich, all the ghost corpses despawn. It happened to me a couple times, but they may have just timed out and poofed. Worth noting though.

    Hope that helps!
     
  18. Drocis the Devious

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    Sorry Daxxe, I didn't mean to sound defensive. It's just that if you only have death magic against that lich, the odds are very much stacked against you. No melee, no other magic, no nothing. Just death magic. It's literally near impossible. I got him down to 400 hp by myself, but it was very painful and I rolled really well.

    I appreciate the additional information.
     
  19. Jefe

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    Yeah. I walked over that area numerous times and shouted numerous things at the phantom wall. It was by pure chance I noticed my mouse pointer change like the pure chance when I discovered my first breakable wall.

    Glad you were able to get in there and get the book.

    I assume that you broke through the breakable areas in the Lich Room.
     
  20. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Half the "power" of the Death Tree lies in it's ability to heal you for as much as it hits for - EXCEPT for the Undead, where no healing occurs.
    I used to use that tree but no more. It's great for everything else, but semi-worthless against the Undead.
     
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