Ethnocentric/ Quasi-religious Content in SotA

I'd question why the developers would consider that the vast majority of players would even want those items and who they consider their vast majority of players to be.

They don't owe me anything. And, no, they are not required to make sure that any religion is represented explicitly or implicitly, but why is it that when I play the game I can see holiday trees outside or in others' homes but not have my menorah in the window of my keep? That's my whole point of not having any of it in the first place if you cannot accommodate accordingly.

Apparently they are per your own words: "Christmas is celebrated by millions and millions of people around the world, many of whom are not even religious (or at least, are not Christians)."

But I am one of them, but in fairness, I'm probably more "them" to their "us".

 

Easy way to test this: watch the sales of the holiday tree add-on item. If it sells to a large number of people, that speaks to its broad desirability. If it sells to a few people, that speaks to its lack of same...that, or that people don't fancy the price point.

False equivalence; your argument here would be valid were Portalarium selling Advent wreaths (which, properly speaking, is the more direct Christian equivalent of a menorah). But they are not doing this.

As it is, and as has been noted previously, the decorated tree is not uniquely symbolic of any one religion. Many Jewish homes also display such trees at this time of year. So do many otherwise secular homes, for that matter. And then not just in North America.

Also? The window for selling Hanukkah-related items has closed; it began in late November this year, and ended last Thursday. Might I suggest shifting your example to whatever decorative item is associated most visibly with Kwanzaa?

 

My friend, I've found that here, analization and commentation can and will be taken as a direct threat and hostile action.
If you don't stick close to the "party line" you will be seen as a dangerous anarchist and many will feel threatened and may react.

For many, this is not only an emotional investment ("my dream game", made by RG himself), but a real-world financial investment where even suggesting something like "can we have yellow hats with a red feather in it?" will cause certain persons to vigorously claim that it's a waste of Dev time and resources, and pixles/code (*personal experience), and some will even say "I don't think this game is for you.", and "Sell your account.", and "Talk to Firelotus and/or Billing to get a refund if you don't like it." (*all examples are from personal experience).

Sadly many people don't see you, or me as their peers...
So phrase everything so that you can claim to pass it off as a joke if and when you get reported...and use a lot of smileys.

 

Good points all around and I concede to your claim of false equivalence. But what is the point of having a holiday tree in the first place? What is this holy day that's being celebrated? Why is it being celebrated? And, yes, I realize that both the Jewish and Islamic calenders follow a lunar calender therefore their particular holidays do not fall on the same date of a solar calender. But this holiday tree is not of the trees of the Tu B’Shevat either which incidentally is being celebrated Jan 16, 2014 and is celebrated by eating fruit. So I suppose your Jewish tree is a false equivalent too. Unless, the trees you are referring to are "assimilation trees" (my bias, my terminology) which I believe are what those trees represent.

 

I know I should do the smileys; I really should sometimes. I should have just went straight to Bowen's thread about New Britannian holidays in the first place if I had known about it.

 

I agree with the request by Kambrius for more lore-based items / holidays. However, what we've seen so far are basically seasonal references that we associate with holidays via our personal bias. As someone said prior, they don't have Santa's sleigh pulled by reindeer, or Thanksgiving in Germany. So maybe for a German backer, or someone from another tradition, the reindeer is just a reindeer. The turkey is just a turkey.

I would be bothered if this was the only kind of addons that were happening, or if this was the extent of the team's creativity (obviously not the case). That being said, if we continue the linking of Earth traditions to New Britannia, it would be great to see a little innovation. For instance, a Spring/Easter/May Day influenced celebration: it would be off the hook to have Avatars hiding trinkets and treasures for anyone to find (even the natives and Kobolds could participate!), but maybe we don't make it painted eggs, maybe it's little carved wooden chickens, or Russian-style nesting dolls, or a seed of some kind.

Of course, it may be that these special items will not be offered again and will be some of the only items that make these kind of references.

Triggering that nostalgia can strongly influence the urge to buy, and relating to real-world seasons and events can add to the success of marketing. Ideally, we would twist these traditions in a way that creates something original while hinting just enough to strike a nerve and trigger the nostalgia response somewhere in the back of the player's brain.

In summary, I don't think Kambrius is being unreasonable in looking for reassurance that this won't go the way of WoW. Encouraging a unique internal culture to this game is important and we should seek to find a middle ground.

 

For us: a bit of fun, which you seem intent on slaying.

For Portalarium: a few more dollars in the coffers.

Mayhap, in either an upcoming chapter of BotA or via an in-game snippet of dialogue in SotA, we shall learn this. As yet, we simply do not know what the people of New Britannia term their Wintereenmas-equivalent.

And you know this how? Are you privy to plot and backstory details the rest of us are not?

Like as not, you are correct...but equally, we have not yet been told what, if anything, the trees DO represent.

I'll just point back to my earlier comments about dendrolatry here. If you genuinely feel that cultural assimilation is being thrust upon you by a harmless reference to a manifestation of a practice that is nearly universal in any particular human population group, I should probably introduce you to my cousin. Being an anthropologist, she'd probably be fascinated to learn about a culture so isolated and unique that it had no dendrolatric practice or ritual of any kind.

 

My friend, you are doing a fine job.
And don't second guess and criticize yourself, there are plenty of people more than willing to do that for you...you wouldn't want to take that away from them, would you?

 

I do...
I like WoW...

 

Thank you. You've articulated the intent of what I did a poor job of doing, but in your examples, I would personally like it to lean more towards the less recognizable items and events, the better. Again; thank you!

 

I would wager that, just like most topics, this perception is only because you aren't even aware of the agnostics/athiests who are not militant (ie, a**holish) about it. Just as among Christians you have your obnoxious "bible thumpers", and that is the face of Christianity some people see most often... so too among athiests you have your "anti-bible thumpers" who are unpleasantly vocal, yet certainly do not speak for the majority.

 

Yeah and it's funny just how many of these OCD atheist/agnostic * ask for other religions and their observances to be given recognition as well. Hilarious stuff!

* edited for language - Koldar

 

I think people ought to just relax. Accept one another because we as "humans" have more in common with each other than we have differences. Rather than think that these things represent divisions let's be honest, and recognize that we all have the same kinds of superstitions ourselves. So what if somebody views something as sacred, for them it is sacred. Most people think the tree is just some fun thing to do. I don't know of anybody who worships God on his Christmas tree.

Some sports fans have lucky items or rituals they do before their team goes out to play. No need to ban that (even though a person's lucky glove doesn't have the power to do anything at all). Let's embrace one another's uniqueness and respect one another's beliefs, and their quirks. I promise you this, having a holiday tree won't defile you, and if you think it will then don't get one in the game.

*****************************
Just don't fall into the trap of "reverse acceptance". What I mean by reverse acceptance is don't become judgmental while trying to rid the world of things that cause people to be judgmental. That's insanity. The reverse acceptance people are acting just like the religious denominations they claim divide humanity. They claim to be morally superior just like the groups they are against.

**************************

Do good to your neighbor because there is no law against love. With love comes acceptance, and inclusion. If you believe differently that's fine too. Why should people ban trees , pumpkins, and turkeys? Aren't trees, pumpkins, and turkeys available to all people already? If you want to ban it because it symbolizes something to some group you aren't apart of big deal. Is it because you feel left out? You're not left out we are all part of the same community and the same world.

EDIT: I'm not trying to belittle you by pointing out these things. I understand how you can feel so offended. My hope is that we can be accepting of one another.

 

Evolution has given humans the psychological need to strive for something and to try to overcome perceived adversity. Back less than several thousand years ago when simple things like securing shelter and food, protecting yourself and your family from being killed, etc... were everyday tribulations for much of humankind, this came in handy bigtime.

Nowadays, society and technology have given people in industrialized countries the opportunity to live comfortably and relatively effortlessly. As a result a lot of people tend to manufacture imaginary ills to campaign against, it gives their lives a sense of purpose.

"Religious persecution" in times of yore usually involved men being slaughtered, women being raped, land being stolen, iconoclasm...
"Religious persecution" today apparently is a decorative pine tree being added to a videogame.

 

There's also the issue of stereotyping. You know- go south, find some islands with brown people wearing feathers and wielding spears. Facepalm. Yet, some would feel that to be an inclusive move. Some say, but it's near the equator and people naturally grow darker in sunnier climates. So how do we make fantasy seem real, and still achieve escapism? Sometimes it's as simple as making East West and West East. Cracking your egg from the other end. On the other hand, switching up all the details can seem equally contrived.

I find the most successful worlds tend to mix and match traits from different cultures. As an example, in 'The Name of the Wind' by Patrick Rothfuss, the Adem are a people who practice a martial tradition comparable to those of the Chinese. They adhere to a philosophy similar to Taoism. However, they're pale-skinned with blonde-white hair, and descriptions render them closest to Swedes or Estonians. This keeps it from feeling like he copied a culture, which in some ways he did. He also adds other independent cultural details that are original or at least do not feed the stereotype. They are decidedly not Pandas.

On a whole though, I think we should keep this discussion centered on its in-game relevance, and not our RL socio-political / religious affiliations or opinions. IE, we're all sitting around a campfire for this chat, so please keep the gasoline stowed.

 

Hey, we're all just children swimming in a sea of pasta under the loving auspice of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, all of us merely reaching out to feel the touch of his noodly appendages.

As long as there is a strainer-hat for purchase in game, everything else is just...a side dish.

RAmen.

 

Very little of Christmas as we know it has any religious significance. It's largely a commercial holiday that has becomes well ingrained social convention. Pretty much everything we recognise as Christmasy come the minds or authors like Charles Dickens and Dr Sues and none of it has any religious symbolism that isn't artificially tacked on by religion X because they can. If you want to use Christianity as an example we are well aware Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25 (just as the Queen of England wasn't born on the Queen's Birthday holiday). If they aren't going to use the actual date, then they can pick whatever day they want to celebrate it. That doesn't mean it has any significance to anyone else.

Furthermore the celebration of Christmas isn't the celebration of a holy day and nor does their need to be a holy day for it to be worth celebrating. Christmas is an evolution of the winter solstice celebration. No religious significance. Just we've made it half way through the hardest part of the year so lets come together and celebrate as it only gets easier from here. With everyone huddled away all winter it's about working together, renewing social ties and hope. I mean what is the holidays tagline? Is it spread your favoured religion? No it's tidings of comfort and joy, spreading goodwill and cheer to all mankind. 'ALL', not just your religious brethren. Anyone who only sees Christmas as a religious facility is not only missing the point, they are missing an opportunity. The opportunity to help spread a little kindness and other worthy sentiments of your choosing.

If the devs want to spread those sentiments themselves in the form a holiday tree, or even empower the players to do so through one... Then I say good on them. To paraphrase N' Sync:
No matter what your holiday
It's a time to celebrate
So put your worries aside
And open up your mind
See the world right by your side
Because it is Christmastime
So Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

 

As a buddhist I practice tolerance. That means tolerance of other religions, cultures and people. As long as they are causing no harm, settle down and enjoy the game. I also celebrate Christmas

Atheists please also practice tolerance, since we are tolerant of your constant whining (just kidding). I do love that in college most atheists I knew wanted an iphone or mac for Christmas from their parents lol!

Anywho people practicing religion is not offensive. If they are forcing you to participate that is different. I do agree that if we have religion in the game , back to the op's point, to allow the creation of other religious activities. However its not our game world and I can practice buddhism on my own in real life. I dont need it constantly in every place I am at . For instance my work desk does not look like a sangha or stuppa, it looks like a messy desk.

 

It's not an atheist vs. theist thing. It's about cultures and respecting others' cultures. There's a reason why I added the ethnocentricism bit to the subject line. Look, it starts with the quasi-religious/commercial symbols of Halloween, Christmas, and Easter. Then you wind up with American holidays like Thanksgiving and Independence Day. Next thing you know, everyone around the world that plays this game has stuff merchandized to them that corresponds to American holidays. I see something fundamentally wrong with that and wholly disrespectful to folks from other cultures.

Sure, the items themselves are innocuous, but it goes in line with McDonaldization, Disneyfication, and the exportation of cultural ideas, symbols, beliefs, etc. without reciprocity. Maybe I am making too much out of it and calling it out too soon and too loudly at the expense of others' fun. I apologize for the latter and I also apologize for not framing my argument better.

And again, I'll say, that I don't think the Devs are doing any of this with that intent, but it's an insidious trend in most games like others' have mentioned. And that's all I am going to say about it. I invite you to think about it and discuss it, but resorting to personal attacks is just not cool.

 

Here's an idea: I would like to see something like Hell Money in the cash shop, so that I can burn to give to my ancestors in the afterlife.

What do you want to see in the cash shop?