Focus Tree still has problems for locked deck users

Sure, but then why even have separate skill trees then? Why not just put all skills into one massive tree? Say, let's put all gathering, refining, and production skills gating all combat skills and then put focus skills under all of that. Because, that makes sense, and, choices, right?

Organization is there for a reason, so all I'd say is that the Focus tree needs more logical organization

 

hehe I don't know if you where serious or jesting there but I would love to have just one tree with crafting and combat combined. It would make more sense for role play and people would really have to work on their templates for what they wanted hehe. Personally I love the idea.

 

Of course, but it's a choice that's penalized (wasting points that are materially unusable) right from the start, in a way that the unlocked deck is not.

You COULD use Confusion, even if you don't WANT to. I CANNOT use Mental Reflexes, even if I WOULD. That's a penalty on top of anything else.

 

Sure you could use it, by using a random or mixed deck; that's the point I don't see why choosing not to have random cards isn't a choice. Most players will probably do a mix.

But if the issue is making sure that locked decks are completely balanced against random decks, then, sure, you have a case.

 

It's a choice with strings attached.

You're free to choose (to waste skill points for no reason).

One choice has access to all the skills, and none of the skills usable (note: not useful, but usable) for that playstyle are walled by skills you cannot use even if you want to.

One choice hasn't access to all the glyphs, and at least three useful skills are behind an additional point wall of skills you simply are unable to take advantage of. This choice has an additional skill cost that the first choice has not. Everything else being the same, my skills cost more, both in skill points and gold pieces, than your skills.

It's like having Mind Wipe and Mind Lock further down the tree, walled by a skill you can use exclusively on all-locked decks.

 

Yea, but one would also note that a random deck needs skills that a locked deck doesn't, which is a penalty against a random deck in the first place, and you're also walling yourself into that playstyle.

Anyway, agree to disagree, its kind of besides the point, because I have no problem with them making those skills useful for locked decks anyway. I agree with Miracle Dragon's suggestion.

 

Player choice and consequences are great, but we're talking about logical skill progression once that choice is made. The current focus skill tree is illogical for one choice. And here's proof:

Go look at Chris' Release 8 combat video. Look at the Focus Skill Tree.
Go look at The Mad Hermit's Release 8 static combat bar tutorial video. Look at the Focus Skill Tree.

What changed between Chris' R8 video (made pre-launch of R8), and The Mad Hermit's post-launch R8 video? They "fixed" random deck skills being gated by a purely locked deck skill. How do I know that?

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/thoughts-on-focus-tree.12924/

The OP complained why a locked deck skill was gating random deck skills. Starr replied:

So there you have it. They made a change in favor of random deck because the focus skill tree was illogical, but in later builds (R11+), they broke it again but this time for locked deck users and it has been that way since.

 

Smack, with your ability to gather and reference information so concisely, I feel like you should be a lawyer! You have a real gift. ;-)
I always look forward to your informative posts in any discussion. Thank you!

 

While it's true nobody is putting a gun against my head to pick them, and you can do combat with 0 points in focus tree and the game doesn't freeze, it's a matter of efficency. We can do fine without points in the focus skill tree nor attributes, but it's undeniable that characters with some point invested in focus skill tree are always more efficent than characters without them (same regarding stats).

• If you're a random deck user and you don't invest in Mental reflex, you'll have to wait skills for coming up. A player who maxxed Mental Reflex is going to have skills available always, so his output will be better. In the same fashion, if you don't invest in Concentration there's a chance (proportional to the amount of points invested in Mental Reflex) of missing skills you wanted to use. I like the possibility of missing skills, it's part of the system... but it's undeniable that a player that invested some points in concentration will be more efficient than one that hasnt because he has more time to combo them, or to choose if he'll use them.
• In the locked deck is pretty straightforward; if you checked Mindfulness & Inner calm you're able to fight for more time than the player who hasn't, but in this case they need to invest points in skills they don't use at all (Eidetic Memory, Concentration, Mental Reflex), and they don't even have the option to do so in their playstyle (as smack is stating).
• In both modes, increasing your hand size will present you more options, so players who invested in Higher counciousness will be better than one who doesnt. Something similar happens with attributes... but is not that obvious (for me) since i don't exactly know how they affect the rest of character stats (but i know they do).

My point is (and has been since i joined) Skill trees in SotA are about you choosing how you want your character to be, thus freedom of choice. Having attributes and skill management inside the skill tree structure creates a situation where the choice is not real since they're the best choice to a certain extent. What feels right to me is to increase attributes and improve skill management as your character level up, so everyone can invest points in the skills they want to have, not in the ones they should have.

 

Perhaps training Crusher and Breaker (innates fromt he bludgeon tree) before you can train Fire Arrow is a closer example

 

Actually, this post here seems like a good argument for rearranging the focus skill tree.

Skills like deck size, that are beneficial to both random and locked decks, should be the 1st layer of gating skills.

Then there could be the random branch, and the locked branch.

The random branch would include the skills that affect the draw/discard speeds, individually locked glyph count (partially locked decks)

The locked branch would include the skills that reduce cooldown and focus costs, etc ...
(I don't think the random deck needs reduced focus costs, as one of its benefits is that you can stack like glyphs for reduced focus already).

I'm sure I'm missing a few skills here, but you get the point.

Situation solved? Certainly more rational ....

 

I like both MiracleDragon and Unforgiven2 suggestions. Both sort of solve what's considered in the OP... but the existence of attribute progression and skill management inside the skill progression still bugs me. I recognice is not something critical... but i prefer not to settle with just the illusion of choice.