Get rid of Grind

@2112Starman you are the most efficient casual of New Brittania

Mostly like a lot of your Ideas, Videos, suggestions, opinions, and knowing you call yourself a hardcore casual.
I really believe you do your 50hrs Job and just play 2 or 3 hours at evening and if you hit the levels you talk of you seem to be a very good abd skillfull player.
No doubt in it and you are always honest and dont hide Infos or knowledge, but share your experience and Wisdom about handling the game. Appreciate that.

But the real casual is me

*tiphat*

 

Thank you! I also know your name well and respect what you say here.

Lately I haven't even had time to play on the weekday. I usually only play from like 8AM to 12PM on Sat and Sunday now. Im usually streaming what I do.

It took me a month to go from lvl 94 to lvl 95 and its been over a month now at lvl 95

Even then its usually on 2, 1 hour runs for xp (400K xp per).

I consider myself a crusader for the lvl 40-100 players now, Ive started streaming my lvl 55 alt more (in 5 skull zones) to hopefully help newer players.

 

Aye.. That knowledge... how to do things in an efficient way does make a huge difference and there are those who willingly share that knowledge. There are also those who wouldn't share that informationWhile I haven't raised a ton in all the trees.. I *have* spread things out a bit as I've tried to lay a foundation for myself that would give me options and not paint myself into a small box. I like being able to be versatile. All things considered.. I'm still quite noobish in many ways but I think/hope that in building the way I have will allow me over time to figure out the best was to do various things if that makes sense. I'm of the age where gaming isn't hardwired into my DNA so I plod along a lot.

I was thinking about this statement as I've been running around doing my RL dailies and I just can't agree more. Obtuse doesn't begin to describe it. For example I know of certain people who would beat their chests "look at ME" and brag about their accomplishments and I'd just sit there thinking...riiiiight... what you accomplished was amassing an insane amount of XP while you watched your spiders "work" a CP. Idk.. that (to me) is like a trust fund baby talking about how smart they were vs the person who had to work 2 jobs to put themselves through school. It's a lot easier imo to be "smart" when you don't have to spend the bulk of your time obtaining the basics.

As for this part..I think my hesitation in using the term "exploiter" is because there are quite a few people who are clever and dedicated AND, for w/e the reasons have the time to put in the work and have earned Boatloads of XP. I don't want to inadvertently lump them all into the same category by saying the 1% have all arrived there through questionable means.

With all that said...I will never understand why things weren't addressed a LONG time ago.. like.. oh ... idk... week 1 of persistence but that water has long since flowed under the bridge.

I think what continues to annoy me is how the masses have been and, continue to be punished imo in an effort to regulate the 1%.

It remains my opinion that one of the biggest issues we have in this game is the low population which I think is largely because the grind just isn't fun. In my case I was having a pretty good time after persistence... getting out and fighting stuff and building my bank account. I could go out and adventure.. and take some time off to shop for items (something that's a waste of time if you don't have the $ to shop with) explore etc. Then came the great loot nerf because it was felt that too much $ was getting into the economy. That first weekend post nerf was so bad I had to take "advantage" of the fact that some folks who had crystal balls working a lot better than mine were buying COTO's.. at ridiculously low rates but that was the only option for my playstyle that put the coin in my pockets to keep on keepin on.. but I digress..

As I consider that the big nerf was done by simply reducing the durability on the items dropped off mobs I fail to understand why a simple reversal of that can't be done so the masses can have a little fun. I submit that you can't do an economic analysis with the current population sample.

I realize @Chris would probably like to slap me by now because of my constant harping about loot. He has said on several occasions in (at least partial) response to my harping that it's because he has to think of the long term effects on the game. I submit again that increasing the population.. which I think would be accomplished by injecting loot (cuz loot allows for fun) would indeed be good for the long term prospects.

In any case I have always thought that my greatest strength was that I am always *willing* to be wrong. I'm not one who sits back with fingers in both ears refusing to listen to opinions which differ from my own.

So maybe I'm just off the rails here..but if so... I'd love to hear where/how my assessment of loot/population/game-health is wrong.

I shall now shut up.

 

I think it was very obvious to a seasoned gamer. A lot of the stuff overlooked might have been from getting the game off the ground and kicking the economy into gear ect plus PR for the game, one that has a thriving economy and the main guilds that PR the game hammered these bugs or exploits into the ground. When most caught on to them and did the same thing they got nerfed and new ones poped up. There are still some in game today and if I can see them I am sure most that are old school can also.

I am just gonna sit on the curb with a bag of popcorn and a bottle of beer and see where it all goes in the end. If the game is monopolized by players even before EP1 kicks in I am not sure how that will be taken by the gamer community that has yet to come in..

 

I have played a lot of games over the years. Beta tested a lot as well. Many games over the years promised "No Grind". I have never seen a game with zero grind. I have seen games that started out with a little grinding, then with the passage of time end up with a lot of grinding. Honestly, I don't think anyone has ever truly come up with a way to keep at least some grind out of gaming. The key is to not make things so difficult that if you want to craft or level up that it doesn't become too much. There has to be a balance between grinding and end goal achievements. I know that Port doesn't want us leveling too quickly but if they make it too hard people will simply say "Screw this" and leave.

Also gains without any effort hold little value.

 

I do not think actual grinding is the issue for its a actual play style, but having the same rewards as grinding using alternative ways to get the same reward vs time invested would be the way to do it vs saying you have to Play this style to get this certain item ect.

 

Just because I love the Homunculus - if he only escaped once, lets be honest, you'd be the only one that did the quest and everyone else wouldn't have anything to do.

Does that make any sense? Or is it that you just want to do everything and leave the rest of us to start threads "There is nothing to do @Lord_Darkmoon did it all!"

 

This certainly negates my usual response as it shows you get it. I feel the issue is infinitely difficult and complex because nobody wants an easy pass or there would no point in having a game. There is no reward without pain and the more pain the greater the reward because that pain is a barrier to entry. All of this you know, and sadly I have no answers. That said, I would strongly oppose easy paths because doing work when others just bypass it is worse than not even having a challenge.

 

Yes this is true. I found a great article talking about making achievement systems for games. We can have goals with our achievements and great awards if only The rewards could even be points towards earning cotos and for some of the more difficult achievements actual cotos. Our coto system could become fair and more than you just randomly find them 1 out of zillion times, but that you actually earn them from your dedication to playing the game. @Lord British2
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.co...ing-achievements-for-your-games--gamedev-3371

 

I have considered this more and I came to realize that there are some alternatives that a purist can still digest. For example, I could spend an hour to gather some material (grind) and another player could go buy that off another player in seconds. That was never offensive. Perhaps, if a similar principle could be applied to all forms of grind. I would not be overjoyed about players being able to get unearned experience, but there is an argument to made that the sellers did pay the grind price and should be able to capitalize on it. Even from a RL perspective, there are teachers and apprentices. In truth, when we buy a crafted item, we are paying another player to do what we could have done ourselves and decided it was worth it.

What I am against is just giving people things that others have to work for without a fair and equivalent cost. Often that is wrapped in a facade of "this is a grind" complaints.

 

Why not?

Serious question i know what you are saying, but i sometimes think it would be "revolutionary" if this is maybe possible.
Maybe it's 30 pages of a quest to read and then answer some questions you only can answer if you have read and understood the Text, maybe you also have to recognize a logic behind it.
Or you have to solve some riddles in a dungeon that requires several time to get the same xp and money you get from 1h grinding.

People who like to read or riddle do this, others grind.

Who defines what is it worth to get 100k xp?
Who defines grind is hard work and reading 30 pages is not?
Who defines work=effort in a game.

Maybe we get a gambling game where you get xp from and if you win you get also gold without to have to make an input, you just play and get reward for it.

In Darkfall running and strength skills by running.
Why does Strength not skill by just walking, Intelligence not by exploring/ visiting? And in an amount thats not ridiculous small, but huge.

Who defines grinding is hard work and exploring is not?

Who once defined Work = Reward.

"The ruling idea of the useful has gradually replaced the noble and beautiful"
Karl Phillipp Moritz

I am an utopist, i say these thoughts came from industrialisation.
There are also people who only think and get rewarded.
There are musicians that get rewarded "just" playing Music.

Oh nice idea, i want xp for going into a Tavern playing some songs.
Who says it's not worth it to create atmosphere, even if there is nobody.
I am online and enliving the world.
Worth a reward?

Placing a decoration on a lot, enliving the world (not judging about the Style),
worth a reward?

Oh and sorry to make this ridiculous Statement to reality now.

Why does a Manager or Sportstar earn 500+ times more than me?
Is his work more worth than the work of a nurse or a Kindergarten teacher?

If i have to make measures, the Bankers and Assurance sellers would cry, believe me...
I would measure things on society benefit.
I dont say Bankers or Managers dont work, i say there income is ridiculous high compared to someone who does a Job directly for or to the society.

Maybe the People hosting Events should get 1 Million Xp per Event?
They do more to the society of New Britannia than every single grinder.

Just to say...
If people like to grind i am the last one who want them to stop or dont get their reward, but i do not see that we need to define this is hard work and hosting an Event, playing Musik ingame or decorating a lot is worth nothing in comparison.

These old thinking patterns of a capitalistic meritocracy need and will break, they drive us all to egozentric Lifestyles, Elbow Society and stop us from developing further.

Maybe a Game one time will try out some rebellious, revolutionary and utopic things to get rid of grind and people begin to play together, sharing things, having fun....

And then comes the argument of:
You have to suffer to feel some luck.

I partly agree, but this need not necessarily be grind your carpaltunnel syndrome
There are lots of other ways to suffer.
And maybe, just maybe we dont need it really, someone testet it if you cannot be happy by not having troubles anymore?
I doubt it...

 

Like where you are going with that @Stundorn. Thumbs up!

 

thanks @Tahru your part was to awakening this


allways Yin and Yang

 

The answer to the list of questions is quite simple --- If everything could only be completed once, the game eventually would come to an end with nothing else left to do.

Games with daily quests allow a player to experience either 1) once-and-done gaming for those who choose that, or 2) repeat an adventure experience for those who wish that.

The best of both worlds. A player choice.

For those that wish to play a once-and-done game, that is easily possible in a game that has daily quests. Simply complete each task once and don't complete it again. It is totally in your own control.

For those that wish to continue to experience the adventure. that is there too. Nothing wrong with doing it a second, third, fourth time for those who enjoy that, right? Doesn't me we all have to.

Immersion in this instance is fully in our control. Its not the game's fault. The game simply offers choices. Just choose the format you want.

There are a great deal of daily quests in MMOs I never play. So its hard for me to say that quests I never play affect my immersion.

Its not about Single Player vs. MMO. Its about how you choose to play the game.

I guess you never played a good RPG a second time, huh?

 

Then the choice would have to be made beforehand like: "Would you like repeatable quests? Yes or no?"
Let's take the example of the missing child: I rescue her and want to have the sense of having achieved something. I want to have the feeling that my deeds do have a lasting consequence. So when I return to the family they greet me, invite me for dinner out of gratitude for saving the child. If I return and they just tell me, that the child has gone missing (again) then the whole sense of achievement is gone. My deed was for naught.
I totally understand that in an MMORPG people want to have lots of content which repeatable quests can deliver and that immersion is not as important as doing lots of things. But at least for me, the immersion is a more important element.

Sure I did replay some RPGs but not immediately after I finished them. Maybe some years later.

 

Interesting ideas…even if I do not think that e.g. rewards for placing decoration on lot would be a good thing as not everyone will have a lot.

Thinking about it a first step in that direction could be the KS stretch goal “$1.9M: The World is a Stage!”. Maybe this could get a first attempt for such an idea.
The idea of the devs was that visitors have to pay some gold to enter some kind of theater building and rate the performance of performers by clapping.
Based on that rating the performers get a part of the from the visitor payed admission charge…why not add to the reward some experience points?

Of course this idea maybe changed already but if it is still the plan this could be a first possibility to gain experience aside of grinding. Maybe the devs would need to adjust the mechanic to be not that much exploitable by e.g. adding a 24h buff “Performer” that is preventing to get such a reward too often.
If this mechanic would be working this could be even enlarged to all kind of stages like the craft able one.
Basically if someone is entering a stage the claps and boos are counted that are directed on a specific avatar on stage. Leaving the stage and you get the buff “Performer” and experience based e.g. on this formula:

(personal claps received from different avatars – personal boos received from different avatars) * 250 experience = reward

Or maybe a more complicated formula that is giving lesser and lesser experience per clap the more claps you get with e.g. 1000 experience points for just one clap in the black and a flattening curve approaching to e.g. 20000 experience points as max value.

 

I played SWTOR for about a year and a half and stopped at the point when all there was to do was the 'dailies' and 'weeklies'. In addition to being bad for immersion, it is also boring after a while.

The only way repeatable content has a chance, in my opinion, is if it can be procedurally generated. So, there is a 'treasure tip' quest giver that gets new treasure tips in every day. But every time you take the quest, it sends you to a random place in Novia, asks you to find a random NPC, who directs you to the randomly selected treasure location, with random loot. You never know how hard or how rewarding it's going to be. I think these kinds of procedurally generated daily quests would be a lot more satisfying than what we ended up with in SWTOR.

 

I always push for repeatable quests.
But i dont mean main lore or story quests.

Simple things like collecting hides. Skeli bones. Rare but not artifact rare drops from nodes.
Repeatable siege lifting missions. Maybe bounties on uncommon named mobs. Maybe pick pocket missions. Escort missions. Hell raiding missions.

Theres a ton of repeatable quests they could put in that doesnt hamper immerssion and the general story to much. Especially if they develop radiant missions where they are almost like randomly generated like skyrim or oblivian. ( waay older ).

Little things go a looong way to break up grind

 

Again this is something that can be learned from other games (i.e Radiant AI in Skyrim) You can have repeatable quests without repeating the same quests. It is called procedural generation and has existed since the first D&D dungeon master's guide was written. You make quest templates and randomly fill in the details that make them different. Sure you are always stopping evil and saving somebody somehow, but that is what adventurers do. To make it work requires a story writing infrastructure that supports the fill in the details templates, and consequential phasing so you can see different things than other people. But if we had the latter implemented then there would be less complaints about the main story as well.