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Housing tax rates seem a bit high

Discussion in 'Release 42 Feedback Forum' started by SabeSr, May 28, 2017.

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  1. Sir Grant

    Sir Grant Avatar

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    I have a town lot and a row lot and consider myself a casual player (with style!). But I find that due to the high taxes, I spend all of my time grinding (8-10 hours a week, mostly weekends) just to keep my lots. I was sort of okay with that as I realize that I'm doing it to myself.

    But now that they have nerfed the Foothills so badly, I'm concerned that I will have to get rid of my lots. There isn't any place that I've found to solo grind enough to be viable for me.

    And that makes me sad.

    Sir Grant
    (Dorquad in game)
     
  2. Trihugger

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    This is my deal-breaker issue: To participate in the economy, you need a house for vendors. Just like in UO, mileage varies on vendor location for sales. At this point anywhere with good traffic is basically full. There is no recall or gating to a marked rune so location is even MORE important than UO as simply having good stuff isn't enough when someone has to spend half an hour to get to you.

    Now other issues... Say I want to go on vacation. You're telling me that I need to include a video game's needs in my considerations for an extended stay away from my computer otherwise I'll lose months (if not more) worth of time/effort? Blasphemous. Similar issue for active duty personnel. You're basically telling those people they're screwed, don't bother playing this game as they may get field assignments that can last upwards of a month. And as @Sir Grant said above, gold production is subject to the nerf bat with every release.

    And finally... the people that this would naturally affect the most... have tax free houses. Not saying they didn't "pay" for it one way or another, but you can't have such a time demanding system in place and create a situation where all home owners don't have a dog in the fight. If you need to, add a subscription based fee for house upkeep so as to not screw over your backers while giving a similar real monetary option to new people.

    "Taxes" need to exist in some form to keep all the land from being occupied by inactive accounts, but this exorbitant tax rate makes having a house like having another job. I play this to have fun, not to feel like I *have* to do something. My own lax variation would be you simply need to refresh your house by visiting it once a *insert agreed upon time here* and if you know you're going to be gone, you can pay gold/COTO in advance at something like xxx gold/month rates to prevent the house from entering the wearing down process. All with the caveat that you've visited the house in the past *insert agreed upon time here* so you can't just not play the game for a year and put a large sum down to occupy the lot.

    Ultimately I feel that if I went through the effort to get something, simply keeping what I've got shouldn't create new mandatory playing conditions. As long as I'm still playing, even as a casual 1-2 hours a night only during weekends, I should still be able to afford the smallest house and still be able to take vacations/be busy with work/etc and not lose it. Let's be real, much of this game is built on housing and needs to be a realistic and accessible feature for anyone that is playing the game. This scenario is far from the case and needs to be addressed. Make no mistake, the people with tax free homes may have contributed and are ultimately the prime individuals that got the game developed, but it will be the casual players I mention above that will keep the game alive into the future.

    Housing cannot be the barrier it is right now.
     
  3. mikedeathdealer

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    This post was made by Chris when they first introduced coto's and was talking about property tax. As you can see Chris Said he based these (now old values) values on observing players making about 3500 - 7500 gold per hour at median levels with decent gear. Median i would assume is level 50-60? Now for high level players they were reaching as much as 20k an hour. Once again these values are very old and anything that has generated gold has been nerfed to the ground.

    "With that said, we will carefully monitor these values and adjust them if average play times do not match these goals." The current property tax has been based off a release before persistence or the first release of persistence. No clue if he is still monitoring the current median "Casual" gold income and looking at the "determined players".

    "Property Tax Rates: The following are the current Property Tax Rates for Taxable Lot Deeds. These are balanced to be based on about one hour of effort per week to maintain a Row Lot on one end and about one hour of effort per day to maintain a City Lot at the top end. We want the Tax Rates to be easily achievable by single players for the smaller lots, but require more determined play for the larger lots. For reference, we based these values on observing players making about 3500 - 7500 gold per hour at median levels with decent crafted gear (some determined players were making as much as 20K per hour!). As players first establish themselves and level up their characters in the first few weeks these rates will be challenging, but we calculate that they are very achievable in the long run. With that said, we will carefully monitor these values and adjust them if average play times do not match these goals."
    • Row: 500 gold per day
    • Village: 1000 gold per day
    • Town: 2000 gold per day
    • City: 3500 gold per day
     
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  4. TheWanderingPoet

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    I can (with help) make maybe 1000g an hour if I'm lucky depending on the strength of my ally. Solo, that's maybe 100g an hour.
    So given I work for a living, I have maybe 5 hours a day that I can play, 5 days a week, and then maybe 12 hours over the weekend. That's 37 hours in total if I decidate myself to absolutely no social life what so ever including ingame. Now, solo that's 3.7k per WEEK. That's not much. With a party, that's 37k per week.

    I currently have about 80k gold. That was from a lucky ring drop a few weeks back. Otherwise I'd be in the negatives buying reagents, crafting ingredients, crafting recipes, etc.

    On average I might make 4k a week at best.
     
  5. kaeshiva

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    The amount of money I have on hand doesn't change much.
    I have a reasonable stockpile of gold, mostly made from selling excess bundle stuff that I don't want, and its earmarked for other bundle stuff that I do want, and I try not to go beneath that threshold.

    I rarely buy resources because you can't make anything out of them and turn a profit, and refuse to pay absurd amounts for things I am capable of going and getting myself.

    Typically I make my "spending money" for reagents, repair kits, scrolls, etc. by spending a few hours a week running halberd-zones.
    Of course, can't do that now.

    Once again, the amount of money you can make has been severely crippled but all the cash sinks are still the same.

    I grind with a reagent free melee hybrid deck . I only use tax free deeds. I've managed to whittle my costs down to repair kits only, especially if I walk everywhere. And I *still* do not see my money go up after just basic expenses. If I decide to sit down and craft a few things, add a few hours grind to afford the fuel. I can't imagine ever having the stomach to grind cash in amounts needed for "rent."
     
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  6. Lord Ravnos

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    I have one taxed Row lot that I pay for using Cotos that I've bought off player vendors for @ 2k each... 1 Coto gets you a week, 4 cotos gets you a month, so for ~8k a month I can have my row lot paid for... so I've basically earned enough gold to buy cotos to pay for 3 months of taxes on my Row... and that took me like 1 weekend of regular play, no grinding. This seems more than reasonable for a "casual" player... Town houses ARE huge and should be valued accordingly to reflect the player's in-game wealth and should not be easily sustainable, imho. :) Live within your means... whether your means are measured in $USD, IGG, COTOs, or TIME.
     
  7. Sir Grant

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    Not trying to argue with you or anything, but I was living within my means 1 week ago. I didn't have much extra gold, in fact I've rarely had more than $10k at a time because I automatically sink it into taxes. But NOW, I can't generate enough to keep what I had kept for months straight because of loot nerfing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  8. Lord Ravnos

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    I hear ya, any maybe, as they've done with allowing for skill refunds, they should allow for tax grace periods when folks lose their primary income generation method due to the ongoing balancing... What this will do though is force players to find new ways to generate IGG... for good or bad. I hope you don't lose your town home! Although I can't help be jealous of it because I'd never want to personally take on the financial and time commitment required currently, at least not alone.
     
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  9. Trihugger

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    @Sir Grant I hope you keep your stuff too bro. 100% agree with you Ravnos on not wanting to take on the time commitment. To me, that would truly feel like "work." I'm personally sick and tired of games trying to have me do things that are classified as "work." Effort is one thing, plain drudgery is another concept entirely.
     
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  10. Nikko

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    Can you solo hunt the central part of Deep Ravenswood on the Hidden Vale (5 skull hardened skeletons and normal Liches)? If you can, then you can make a decent living from a half-hour to an hour a day.
     
  11. SabeSr

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    when my load of Tea is ready for harvest I'm dumping that biatch in Brittania harbor... every last leaf
     
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  12. SabeSr

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    Yes.
     
  13. SabeSr

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    If they want a goldsink... make hoes a one shot deal... I don't care, just stop taxing my arse until vasaline doesn't even help....
     
  14. TheWanderingPoet

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    I could make you some better Vaseline.
    If you add "Wandering Poet" I'd be happy to help you get gold. I know a good gold place. It's not so great it's nerfable, but not so bad it's unbearable.
    (I'm a healer though so you'd need to bring damage)

    That goes to anyone. Wouldn't want anybody losing their house :(
     
  15. Gatsu.

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    everything wrong with IGG (in game gold) .. on Medieval times.. an ARMOUR can cost like an HOUSE...
    and pay HOUSE taxes can cost something like the price of a cow every 6/12 months... (if there is some protection from a castle)

    see my post: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/gold-coin-completely-wrong-value.91257/

    4) reduce house fees by 70% (add interest on missed payments.. 100% more)
    5) reduce oracle free money to 100 gp ( just something for newbies with no money)

     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  16. Frederick Glasgow

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    Although rental have been pushed back a few times,this is one thing rentals will help with.

    1. You own property and rent rooms for XXXX and use said items to sell to others for gold to raise tax money or use XXXX to craft and sell for gold.

    2. You rent from someone else,keeping in game gold sink at a bare minimum.

    The game,which in some aspects reflects on life, applies here. A lot deed and home ownership can be achieved thru a number of means,but that being said, a taxed lot deed is not going to be the answer for a lot of players. Many players are mot going to have the time and do not want the added pressure of spending all their game time in a grind to pay lot taxes,that will not make the game fun at all.

    Some propose lowering the taxes. As has already been discussed,the Oracle can give you 500 gold per day. This means in general,a row or village lot should be within many players reach. In the case of a casual player,I cannot see a town or city taxed lot deed as a viable option.
    • Row: 500 gold per day
    • Village: 1000 gold per day
    • Town: 2000 gold per day
    • City: 3500 gold per day
    So here we see a row lot deed can be paid for daily by just logging in and answering the Oracle question correctly each day. And in the case of a taxed village lot deed, a correct answer will pay for one half of each days taxes. Beyond these two, a casual player will put themselves in a possible bind. I do know folks who have town and city lot taxed deeds, but none of those are casual players,the demands on their time,at least they say, are too high. This is not to say you can't do it,but being a casual player has it's own set on time issues and if you want to spend 100% of your time grinding for taxes,that is folks choice. In real life,this is what causes stress and heart attacks.

    My personal opinion is yes taxes are a pain,but as in real life,if you don't have the cash flow to afford a large lot,then by all means stay small. This isn't about keeping up with what someone else has,it is about you being able to enjoy your game time. :)
     
  17. TheWanderingPoet

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    Not all homes have rooms which can be rented. My lighthouse for example, has one single room.

    The issue with taxes being 500g a day at the minimum and then forcing the oracle every single day. If you mess up her question once, you have to scramble to get gold. This is especially an issue because it's a pain to know what your virtues even are. I found out by following a number of quests I lost virtues. There is also little understanding on how to fix that.
    So you end up with a lot of missed virtue days because she flipped on you. Now you've got to grind and hope repair kits and reagents don't eat up your gold.
     
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  18. Elwyn

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    My two bits:

    - town and city lots were not meant to be "casual", and there is nothing preventing you from using a larger taxable deed on a smaller lot

    - the current rent rates are based on pre-nerf income, when there were lots of exploits and good drops off of normal mobs

    - but this is still pre-release and there aren't a lot of people playing. If there were more people playing, players would be able to have an income from selling things on vendors.

    - I have noticed a serious drop in purchases off of my vendor in the past two weeks or so. I used to not be able to keep beetle carapaces around at 400 each, now I have had 30 unsold, and only sold another 10 in the past week or so. This indicates that either the money supply is drying up after nerfing halberd drops, and people don't have a lot of spare gold for player vendors, or people have stopped playing as much lately (which could be possible because summer)

    One word: plastics basements!
    Just say to her the names of the each virtue, and she will tell you the status, and possibly refer to a recent event that affected it. Most virtues are currently hard to sway very much unless you steal a lot of deco/break lots of barrels or complete a virtue story line. (I had both truth and love way down, then after finishing Love, it was positive.)[/quote]
     
  19. istyrl

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    what about now with the drop rate increase on potions kits and scrolls (half an hour grind at the kobold camp brings me around 2000 gold now if i take my time), what do you guys think, the last post is quite old, would like to have your opinion on the current situation. Do we still need to push for tax decrease? I am not casual right now, but would need to know for some friend interested to join, but these guys will be casual players and will love to own a house.
     
  20. Sorthious

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    As I pointed out before, you can get 500gp from the Oracle alone every day. That pays a Row Lot's taxes per day. If you want a Village Lot, then you would only need to come up with an additional 500gp per day to cover that cost. In addition, if you buy COTOS, currently around 2500gp, you can use them to pay rent. Each COTO, when used to pay taxes, counts for 3500gp each, bringing your actual tax cost even lower. Also, you can pay up to 90days in advance for your rent. So, if you were going to be away from the game for an extended period of time you would be covered until you get back. There is also a 14day grace period where you will start to accrue taxes, but not get evicted from your house. As long as you catch up on the bill before the 14days is up, you will keep your lot.

    • Row: 500 gold per day
    • Village: 1000 gold per day
    • Town: 2000 gold per day
    • City: 3500 gold per day
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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