Is it me, or is it pay to win

Lets first start out with me saying, been a royal founder of this game, but haven't been following anything except browsing through the updates. Besides that I am also an original backer of the Star Citizen game.

And where Star Citizen is often accused of being "pay to win" because you pay to get ships (that can be destroyed but eh). To me as outsider this game looks really like pay to win. I will explain why;

Tax free lots, why, besides already getting to pick a spot before everyone else, you also get the advantage of not having the moneysink. so any premium spots will be "given" away like;
this 1st people who were here early + gave a lot of money
people who were here later + gave a lot of money
people who gave a lot of money
people who actually play the game to get their money.
so basically to get any good spot i need to throw a lot of money at the game (where also the more expensive and limited slots are situated in the best spaces. --> you will never get this if you want to earn your plot in game!!!)

And than there are the items you can buy, there is no way to earn them in game, only way is to throw money at the game, description is like;
"This unique, indestructible cleaver increases the quality and quantity of butchery items produced. While cleavers with similar effects can be crafted and purchased in the game this cleaver never needs repair. "
giving you another thing that cannot be earned in game.
So while people who play the game and don't have a lot to spend can get something similar they will never be able to get the same as people who have bought the item, so besides the people having bought it starting out with the item, they also never have to renew it!

So in short, if I throw a lot of money at the game I will have the best spot and items that will never break, while people who don't throw money at the game just wont have the premium spots and will have to spend extra time just to repair their equipment.

now the comparison with Star Citizen;
They had the Lifetime Insurance (LTI for short) on ships. Effectively meaning that when backed the game i would not have to pay basic hull insurance on that ship. This received a lot of outrage because people joining later will not have this. This has resulted in LTI being toned down to a level where a ship with LTI would still have to buy ingame (with earned credits) insurance to insure their equipment and cargo just like everyone else. And the basic hull insurance will be the cheapest moneysink in game.

In SC one can pledge for a ship, except for the "Scythe" and perhaps the "Idris M" all ships that players have been able to purchase for real cash will be purchasable in game for in game money.You will get the exact same ship with no advantages of having spent real money on acquiring it.

So there is no difference between backing Star Citizen early or late except access to alpha and beta (where access to alpha and beta multiplayer is given out according to the time one pledged and not the amount of cash one pledged)

And the only diffrence at throwing a lot of money at the game is starting out with a bigger ship, one that can be bought in game just as it is.

so that was my rant as why to me this smells/feels like pay to win.

edit: point is here you are buying limited items for cash that are not obtainable by earning money in game, never! That premium spot in the best town you bought for $1200, can never be earned by playing in game because they are limited and already sold!

 

Well well, outsider, come in and rant. *Guards, escort him to the city gate.*
Backers pay to win, for sure. For winning the creation of a game, which would not even be there without our pledges.

Compensation is mainly decoration and some convenience (convenience = time, and most backers have invested time to earn the money spent on the game). What is the best spot and where is it? This is in the eye of the watcher. One may like the top hill spot on a remote island best, another one the city. One is going to love crafting, the other hates it. Repairing the non prosperity tools? I think tools are getting replaced as soon as they wear out. And since also these are not the best, in future they may be nothing like a nice deco.

*Salute*
Olahorand

 

IMHO - every game is pay to win, the only difference is that here people are paying the money that would normally go to gold farmers, directly to the people making the game (so they can make the game).

If port weren't selling the real estate, you'd still be picking over the crumbs after all the goldbuyers took all the best spots, way before anyone else had a chance.

 

People have made many arguments on both sides. The fact is, we don't know what "win" is.

If the goal is to get a house, you could easily argue that it's pay to win. But you could also say that it's "pay to opt out" because you're really no longer in the hunt for the prize. You don't have an advantage in the race, you just get the trophy.

If gold is a universal currency, then stuff which help you get gold faster may be helpful. But in many games, gold doesn't matter much. So we don't know.

 

these people are throwing away thousands of money to develop the game that I want made and I want to play... if they get a castle or even an entire continent for the money they donated then all I can say to them is "thank you"...

 

So they have a bigger house and don't have to pay rent, big win. I'm happy with what I can afford and don't concern myself with what others have.

If you define win as being able to pay for better things then yes its p2w, just, does it matter?

 

Its not just the bigger houses, it the limited availability of spots in general. There is no space for a house for everyone, added to that is the premium location, having a shop in a place where everyone comes because its a major hub or having a shop in some backwater town no one ever visits, big difference wouldn't you say, if you want to earn in game cash.

I think you misread, i have no problem spending a large amount of cash to help develop a game that i want to play, in fact thats the whole croudfunding, i dont mind the thank you, I do mind the unfair advantage. Where in SC you get a ship for your money, but that ship can be bought by ANYONE! given they earn enough cash
here you get a Premium location, a unique something that can never be obtained by anyone else because you gave money no matter if i will be the richest man in the game.
Also you dont have to grind to keep your gear up, because it is indestructible.

Even if i loose my LTI ship on SC i need to have something else to fly so i need to "grind" and LTI just covers the very basic of cost, not the premium tax cost in the major cities.

I dont agree with that, EvE was ISK --> bigger ships --> better equipment and not caring if you lost it
WoW was mounts and potions

so in game currency is a good part of the game, it is why gold sellers exist. If in game currency was worthless there would be no gold sellers.

 

Well, I played UO for 2 years before I managed to buy a house, my friend paid $2000 for a tower, thats just how things go.

 

you are missing the point, if people are buying something that people who dont want/cannot buy wont have and will never have a way to get without spending money.

 

If this game runs its life cycle (and then some), your argument is completely obsolete, as what will be the premium spot today will change next year, and the year after that, and so on for 5 years at least. EP1 may have some competition for these 'premium' spots... but all you have to look at right now is a tiny island, barely anything in comparison to the world at large, which will have at least a couple of dozen of settlements ranging from woodland villages to keeps to Brittany itself. The ONLY thing the backer gets over other players is placement and no tax... EVERYTHING else is available (except for possibly the duke and LOTM plots, some limited time items and the stretch goal items) inside the game for in-game currency.

Even if there is a problem with limited spots, then you have the option of player owned towns, which add the ability to up other spots not already 'baked' into the landscape. No, these won't be the "premium" locales you are sweating about, but they open up the ability for players to have some form of impact on the world around them. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, you can get THESE through in game currency and gameplay as well. Once again, the only advantage is selection and tax free status.

As far as the prosperity items are concerned, it has been said that not only can you craft items of equal quality in game (yes, they will need to be repaired and eventually replaced), you can create BETTER items. The only thing you really get is a pretty item that can become another decoration or maybe save you a little money.

Yes... you get advantages to backing, but we are only glimpsing the tiniest portion of the first 10% (or even as little as 4% if you believe the "landmass will roughly double with each release" line) of the entire world this game is supposed to encompass.

In the end, it is WAY too early to say that there is any possible form of P2W here.

 

Like I said its p2w, but right at the bottom of p2w, I just don't see why I would care that someone else has the ability to have an ever lasting scythe/axe/mop.

 

Other than tax free status on land, unbreakable items that confer very limited advantage, the unique "fluff" items that can be had from the stretch goals store, and the Duke and LotM plots, what is there that you cannot get in game?

 

This game cannot possibly be pay to win. If everything works and the skew of the founders does not change the game too far off Richard Garriot's orig ideas for the game and tank it, then Shroud of the Avatar should be perpetual for quite some time. You by definition, literally, cannot "win" a perpetual game.

So it is not pay to win.

It is some thing else, but then again so is everything in life. Pay for Advantage. Get the terms right, and then we can move forward in this subject.

 

Plots for land, some items (fluff/personal value is far too subjective), certain housing types. Not to mention the stretch goals remain completely ambiguous. There is no proper and less implied understanding of how the stretch goals will actually work.

Not to mention this community has been totally polarised around investment...

But as for the new person's perspective, I too am concerned. It's not "pay to win", but it's certainly a convoluted mix of cash shop, traditional kick starter, and orthodox premium entry. This cash shop/stretch goal shop business hadn't started when I initially pledged and I'm not happy about it, at all.

 

*chop*

Next time, I won't try to do math in the wee hours of the morning...

 

honestly, I don't see it as paying or buying advantages in the game... I see it as donating to the cause... or helping the process... or supporting the development... I guess, it's just me...

 

Do you honestly believe that Portalrarium would have still raise the same money if there was not an advantage,? I seriously doubt 4 mill would have been raised if nothing was offered. So yes, i guess it is just you.

 

I'm in for more than i wish to admit in Star Citizen, so i dont mind "supporting development with insane amounts of cash for something i will probably not be able to play in the fullest before december 2015"
I do have a problem with offering things that can only be obtained from a shop and that give, how ever small, an advantage.

it is things like quote FAQ:

that are worrisome to me! Its like get it now before you are too late and it can actually be to late because the amount is limited, added tot that people with a lot of cash can buy multiple plots of land just to resell at inflated prices! Limited spots are sold for premium prices already!

once again, in SC i can by a spaceship, everyone can buy this space ship, people who dont have money can buy this space ship in game. The availability in game will be unlimited. Buying a ship now is actually sponsoring the game and getting the ship.

In SotA if i want to have a plot i better shell out a couple of hundred dollars now, because if i dont have enough time to play there will just be none for me to get, where i can always get my spaceship in SC. It might take me ages, but it will be there.

and THAT is my major objection. Spending money on the game gives me an unfair advantage over people who cannot spend $600 on a game!

 

That is both sides of the story, it is both, and the entire thing is setup exactly for those reasons. Pay for Advantage at the same time enriching the game for everyone else(hopefully).

 

i just have this link for you: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/
47 million

It might be just the way they are selling limited items that is making people not join in. It is for me