Is it me, or is it pay to win

There will be lots of players who already own multiple plots and they will be buying more so every episode anyone that thinks of buying into the game they will know they have no chance of owning a house unless they go to Ebay/ Gold farmers sites and spend $0000.

It may have to go to Kickstarter for Episode 2 so they would just be selling off lots in the shop again, but they may find it hard to sell to others.

 

You mean new instances, the world is an instance fest how many loading screens will you have to sit through to earn a land deed it could take years.

 

Devs already stated there will be many more lots available over what was sold to us on here. Only thing you will find on ebay would be founder/royal founder accounts or just tax free deeds.

 

It looks to me like Portalarium is kind of floundering confusedly, mixing all these different funding models... but, I think that's to be expected, since these funding models are all so new. They're trying to figure out what "works" and what doesn't. In any case, I'd prefer they get $4 or $5 million or whatever this way than $4 or $5 million from a traditional publisher like Activision or Zenimax. Excepting UO, RG hasn't helmed an unequivocal hit in two decades. He blamed the decline of Tabula Rasa on NCSOFT, the decline of Ultimate Collector on Zynga, and the disasters of Ultima VIII and IX on EA. (Of course, he's probably *correct* on most of those criticisms, particularly the latter Ultimas.) With the crowdfunding model -- however messy it is -- he has no publisher to blame woes on. If SotA winds up a mess, people won't be talking about Chris or Starr, they'll be *talking about Richard,* and he knows it; people will be talking about him as if he's George Lucas going through his Phantom Menace phase. Although many people would buckle under such pressure, I suspect that RG is able to redirect it towards positive ends and can actually thrive on it. That kind of pressure is what forms coal into diamonds. I can look at the latest builds and imagine what the endgame is, and it is *awesome.* And I think part of what will make help make it awesome is that marketing folks from publishers aren't breathing down their neck. So anything that helps Portalarium maintain its *independence* is a plus, regardless of all these debates about what is or isn't PtW or whatever.

 

I find it hard to understand the P2W angle.
How do you win in SotA?
So you have bought a house for real money, have you then won?
Or have you won when you have bought 2 houses and a Castle?

If some people invest money in the game to buy houses so the game can be made so be it.
Would you rather have no houses but also no game?
Easy choice isn't it?

If you could buy the uber sword of awesomeness and slaughter anybody within a five mile radius then yes
that is what I would call P2W.
But not a house.

 

If it was Monopoly Online, then yes, being able to buy houses with real world cash would be Pay to Win.

 

Shroud of the Avatar is a Crowd-funded and Crowd-sourced game. It is not Pay-to-Win, it's Pay-to-Fund.

The Backers get a in-game return on their "investment", and rightly so that we should. I'm tired of trying to brush that under the table.
I am tired of having to make excuses for what I received. There would be no game without us, the backers - End of Story.

You simply cannot label a Crowd-Funded game with a term like Pay-to-Win because, YES... we are Paying, and because we are (no matter the pledge level), a game is getting created - a game that would not be available to all the "non-backers" if we did not.

If you do not want to Back the game, or you are only comfortable with a small pledge, that is Perfectly Fine and acceptable. I applaud and welcome everyone at whatever level they can come in at - even if that is after the game is released. You will have a wonderful experience in the game, with in-game currency, like any other MMORPG.

However, please stop pointing the finger at me like I've done something wrong by backing at a high level, or at Portalarium because they offered me in-game items for my investment. I'm proud to be a Dev+ backer of Shroud. Instead of worrying about what I got for my High level Pledges, perhaps the non-investors should be Thanking everyone (All the Backers, Big and Small) for helping create a game that would not otherwise be available to the greater community. Because the reality of it all is, without all the people willing to invest, and justifiably get in-game items for that investment, you would have to no game to worry about if it is "Pay-to-Win" or not.

It's was a HUGE leap of faith for all of us who have invested so far. It's not like an MMO that is already running and we get immediate items for our money RIGHT NOW. We are each giving a lot of ourselves, with no guarantee that anything will be fulfilled or get a return over the next 5 years or so.

You know, this Project is the coolest thing I have EVER been a part of and every month it just keeps getting better and that is because all of the Backers.

So am I going to "Win" when Shroud gets "Released"? Honestly, I feel that I already have.

 

As I've said before, we don't know if it's pay to win because we don't know what in means to win. The reason it feels pay to win is that the only ladder or form of advancement in the game so far is the pledge tiers...and that is clearly p2w. But if there's better gear or achievements or levels of some other thing, we don't know what it takes to earn those things or if houses help.

My problem is that I think housing and villages would have been a really awesome advancement ladder. Because I imagined people fighting over castles with land, then gathering and crafting for better villages and houses. And they can't really do that if people start the game with the house their happy with, can't lose it, and have little ambition for more.

But that's fine....they just need new ladders.

 

I want this game to succeed, and feel good about being a Dev+ backer. But, I think the time has come for me to admit, that every time something new is added to the cash shop, I cringe a bit more, and expect a bit less.

 

It seems some folks' definition of pay to win is if there is anything that people can buy with cash that can't be earned in game.
So, for example, the prosperity tools. As trivial as that seems to me, some people feel it's an advantage, if even only slightly.
I mean, how much of an advantage do you have when you've saved the repair cost? How much do people think repair cost will be?

So, when somebody asks if it's pay to win, I feel they've already decided that it is, and there's no answer I can give that will make them think otherwise.

So, there is a story driven quest. If you complete that, have you won?

Did having a castle help somebody in the quest?

Did the ability to craft equipment a little faster help them finish the quest maybe a little sooner than somebody that didn't have prosperity tools?
That's just quibbling over bragging rights.
People will argue over who finished first, and the people that took longer will say it was because others had an advantage because they paid to win.

This is a great example of why I tend to play solo.

 

I already am a backer, thing is, the more i read about how they are going to do it, the more I see about indestructible items and limited real cash plots the more I want out. They are not making what they pomised, i get they need to make money because they have actual real life things to pay. only for me "getting something that is unobtainable in game" is the epitome of p2w

the "no winning because its an mmo" is a bit of a weird excuse, yes there is no winning, however if i have the indestructible armor and sword you get at pledge level $10000 how much fun do you think pvp will be for the persons not able to spend that amount of cash

Your argument is moot on 2 points, you cant do it solo, everyone can potentially get it.if i pledge enough here i get a tax free plot, with a tax free merchant to sell stuff for me, i wont even have to be online to sell my stuff and people who actually grind to get there get extra taxes. anyone know how much taxes will be already? With a pledge of $35 you can play SC and ultimately get that Idris, in SotA i can never get that premium spot because it will always be sold for real money 1st.

 

definition of p2w
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

edit: I see how people are blind to a game they love and really want to play and will defend it and people who stand farther away from it will see it from a distance. but based on that definition we're talking p2w

 

How does it unbalance the game?

 

with your tax free merchant, tax free plot and unbreakable equipment you will do things faster/better. Your house will be at the centre of town where more people visit -->your shop if frequented more often; because you gave more money at the game. Al in all having less money sinks lets you have more money in general --> you can spend more money on getting that better item (even if it is destructable) than someone who didnt spend $$ to get in that premium location because he has to grind for his stuff. Hope that cleared it up a bit

Since i dont have a couple of thousand $$ to get a house in a premium location and thus i will have a significant less income and less joy in setting up my store, i am no longer caring about a game where people who give a lot of money get such a huge reward. So if you mean by no game at all the easy choice than yea. The way i look at it now i have no feeling for the game and couldnt care less if it was made or not! because in my perception it is p2w!

guess we have different standards, and i already draw the line at monthly free gold (as you dont even have to pay taxes)

 

i think i explained it a bit on the previous pages. but again:

you are missing out on money sinks. when you buy a plot with no tax and vendors that pay no tax. Than we have the locations, prime locations cannot be earned in game, they will already have been given away to the people who paid money to get the spot.

prime location --> more potential customers --> more sales --> more profit --> more generic currency

 

@Bornhald, trust me - not everyone will be running around with an Idris in SC even two years after launch. Only the guilds will be able to run, maintain and pay the upgrade and maintenance costs.

 

Yes.
I think here, we just have different definitions of what it is to win.
My definition is to complete the story quest.
Nothing that other players have prevents me from playing the story.
Nothing I do prevents other people from playing the story.

If somebody buys something that lets them finish the story faster, I don't care. I am not playing against the other players. I'm playing against the game.

If I could not complete the quest without buying the uber sword from the cash shop, I would call that pay to win.

If your definition is having more currency, then I suppose there will always be players with more currency than me.

 

completely true, not everyone will want to run that, but everyone has the potential to get it in game. It is not about the fact if you can run it effectively or if it is what you want, its about pure potential and every player no matter when they join have the potential to get one. Not so with prime locations sold for real cash. Even the Idris M and the Scythe can be obtained in game! its not easy but it CAN be done!

 

well as a house = storage, and there are limited plots and you cannot buy and place your house on a slot that is taken in multiplayer world it does affect you directly. (FAQ says it works like that)

 

That's not p2w at all. Everyone can complete the story. There's no win there. p2w is about rationing of scares resources in some zero sum game or moving higher on some advancement ladder. Scares resources would be: land, rare items, or anything where everyone cannot just get their own copy. Ladders would be titles and prestige.