Justice System Brainstorming

I'm hoping for a way to not be a Felucca/Trammel or PvP 'flag' separating all play styles. Factions are pretty icky. I know from experience, not all PKers are bad/mean/cruel whatever. They shouldn't have to be separated, and it takes away from some of the adventure for all of us if they are. On the other hand, no WAY do I want people to be victimized. No MMO has figured out how to do it. None. If SOTA could, this would be an innovation breakthrough, and would shut up most of the PK spam up from the Forums. Must we be like every other MMO out there in respect to separating the players?

Bowen pointed me here. I've been wanting a Justice System, so I've read everyone's posts here.
Thoughts:

• Victims need to be talked about more, not just the 'criminals'
  • Yes to PKing and yes to stealing, but NO to punishing the victims with loss of time, etc.
  • The victims [R.L. Players] do not actually suffer for another Player, unless they have knowingly wandered into a dangerous area.
  • If you're a victim, you have to be put right back where you were before the criminal came along, in compensation, or some manner.
• Bounties - I've always liked the idea, but with Players, you're asking for exploitation.
  • You cannot remedy that by 'not allowing' anyone in the same guild to collect on another guild member. The other account character will not be a guild member most likely. So,... they'll work together for the bounty and split it. Things like that always happened. I'd advise not to put any of it -- the mechanics of it -- into the Players' hands.
  • The person can and will have a separate account, in order to 'get away' with it, split the Bounty reward, etc. -- Lord British will never know.
  • You can allow the Players to view or interact in some things, but not actually be in the mechanics of it.
  • Idea: Can the money be 'marked'? If the reward money, the bounty money, can be marked, hmm... I don't know. Still exploitable for buying something and splitting that. Can the reward for the bounty be something besides monetary? Something that cannot be split or given away, that is bound to the player?
• Punishment [not to the RL person, but to the Player] should fit the crime
  • Toss tomatoes publically if someone steals a pie?
  • Punishment for thievery depends on value of item?
  • Punishment for murder is instant death in safe areas if a guard catches you - if that's the law of the land set by Lord British. [or is Lord British the law of the land at this point?]
  • If guards do not see the murder, but witnesses do, the killer can be reported
    • The murdered should have the option to report the crime at the moment of death, as should any witnesses, PC or NPC [via game mechanics] [we are 'otherworlders' and in this universe can do it, reality/fantasy whatever].
    • Game mechanics record if it was a mutual duel, self defense or murder
      • Duel - mutually agreed - some way to 'spar' anywhere, or Arena?
      • Self defense - tougher - NPC witnesses - the one who strikes first??
        • Going to a chat log would involve a GM, and that shouldn't be done unless there's an exploitation involved.
    • Murder victim gets no punishment [gets restored/compensated/no time loss] and report gets filed.
    • Murderer gets pursued/stopped/clapped in irons/taken to trial/prison/inserted into the quests that will make it punishment for the game character, but fun for the Player.
      • Many quest options available in previous posts/threads on the subject
    • Accessories to the crime should be optionally reported also, pursued, etc.
• Wanted Poster : I love that idea! I think the thief/killer/accessory might like those too, collect them, etc
• @vjek - [nice ideas!]
  • Economic/Story Consequences
    
    all tasks & services offered, max reputation
    bonus tasks offered
    bonus services offered
    +1 lower prices (discounts)
    0 standard prices, standard services, standard tasks
    -1 higher prices
    fewer services offered
    fewer tasks offered
    no services or tasks offered
    
    Justice/diplomacy/political consequences
    
    you are a hero to the citizens
    you are trusted by the citizens
    +2 you have committed what is considered a heroic act in this region
    +1 you have helped the citizens of this region
    0 you are considered a standard citizen of the region
    -1you have hindered the citizens of this region
    -2 you have committed what is considered a crime in this region
    you are untrusted by the citizens
    you are an enemy of the citizens

It's late and stuff is going on ... will have to think more/post later if I have more...

*EDIT: [Another long day for me!]
Things I didn't mention in the first post due to tiredness distraction.

• Bounty - take half from the 'criminal' - great idea! [credit @jondavis ]
• PKers with 'good' Reputation who are solely out there to kill PKers with 'bad' reputation
  • That should be completely legitimate and unpunished, based on reputation which has been 'earned' by how the Player functions/acts within the game mechanics. and should then be credited toward a Player's reputation
  • Even in someone else's idea about 'good' players getting an opposite type of danger in a place [or places] like Buccaneer's Den, where the criminal element was welcome. That makes sense to me, and I like it, and could see the tables turned there legitimately, if Lord British's guards [or whoever actually is the ultimate 'law' in New Britannia to start out with] didn't hold sway there.
• Some cities - as in the aforementioned sub-point, are not completely lawful
  • Crime means less there, and has less stringent penalties, or even notice
  • Some cities could pride themselves on thieves and assassins, and count them into 'The Game', meaning that they become a political and social factor, well known and used openly.
• @AuroraWR Regarding the hood ability, I like the idea of having stealth added to different items, the hood being one of those, or an Incognito [as in UO], and items being -- like a mask -- an accessory to such a disguise.
• Roleplay-wise in-game mechanics that I would like to see is the arrival of guards [either a cut scene or paralyze the 'criminal'(s)] so that the Players will be able to watch the guard arrive and take the 'criminal' into custody. This would be for the crimes the guards did not personally witness, but have now caught up with the 'criminal', as well as for the criminal act that was witnessed, but not a crime with an immediate death penalty.
  • I would also love to see official scrolls arrive to the guild who has a 'criminal' member, with the offense outlined and the ultimatum of turning in their member or losing guild status or reputation, etc., depending on the crime(s).
    • Official scrolls could arrive via a hired NPC delivery or by mail
    • I would love to see a cutscene [or a paralysis of the 'criminal' - and possibly their accompanying friends/members] upon the guild's/group's delivery of their member/friend to the legal point.
  • Views of some of the legal procedure, punishment or incarceration [visit(s)] would be great. Public access in some instances, more private in others, depending on severity of the crime.

***EDIT 09.17.2013 -

• 'Good' PKers killing 'bad' PKers, specifically, 'murderers' - a rethink: Vigilante justice isn't always thought of well by society, so there should be rules of what will or won't be acceptable.
• Infamy - [say 1-100 setting, for example] is the public's awareness of your crime -- it's not a 'meter of evil'. So, there can be ways to lower your own infamy -- cover your tracks -- but only down to a certain level [like only down to '20' out of the 1-100 set points of Infamy]. So, a mask, or a bribe [to an NPC, Town-Crier, for example] can only reduce your infamy to a certain level as mentioned in previous sentence by me here.
• Azorius Guild in 'Magic' [the popular card game] - was brought up by my son as a SOTA game idea. They specialize in 'containment' magic. They're the law with all three branches of Justice, i.e., Exectutive, Legislative and Judicial. -- so... food for thought

****Further edit add:

• Infamy -
  • You may check on your Infamy as a criminal by using the 'Underground' people, and still trade in the black markets there
  • Wanted Posters may automatically update with criminal's Infamy rating
• Stupid Exploitations -
  • You're killing something, someone waits until you have the hit points down, then tries to get the kill points/loot/XP - if you're grouped, that should be split, if not, the first person to strike should be credited with the kill benefits [LOTRO does that - you can still 'group' before the thing is dead if you agree, and both get kill benefits.]
  • If you're killing a creature to get to ore [or whatever resource], and while you are killing the creature, another Player just takes the resource, that is really bad manners -- if it's obvious, i.e., you're standing over the resource while fighting -- however, I think you have to let it happen, and not file some 'legal' or GM complaint. You may want to be sure to cross that Player off of your Open World options.
  • If another Player gets a 'train' [creature mobs] to run your way and causes them to attack and kill you, you may want to file a complaint report to a GM for exploitation, unless somehow the game mechanics can track for such an occurence -- which I doubt -- and give you the option to report that Player as your murderer.

 

I am not suggesting the game count the dishonoring as PvP, more that the opportunity to RP going out and putting a bounty on someone isn't something that necessarily needs a game mechanic. Also, yes, you couldn't put a bounty on a non-PvP enabled character.

That said, I think at least the guard system should still work for the non-PvPer.. thus allowing consequences for going around murdering NPCs.

I'm with you on the splitting bounty rewards issue. There have been some suggestions on this, from bounties giving 'prestige titles' instead of gold, to the money for the bounty reward coming from said criminal (or being able to be paid off by the criminal to cancel their bounty) which would help stop a criminal from using their own bounties as a gold mine... but not necessarily stop them from paying the bounty, having their buddy collect it, and getting their money back hence losing nothing.

Neither of those help the victim of the crime recover their things however (unless the bounty hunger grabs them and returns them in the process, but not guarenteed). I'm not sure how that should be covered. On the one hand, if you always get your things back then what is the point of thief characters? On the other, griefers going around just to mess with people, then by all means they should get things back. If that is the case, however, how many staffers need to be around to address such things?

I'd really like to see a justice system that discourages excessive crime to the point where if/when it does happen it's not a weekly occurance for any individual. So if you do lose things, it won't be like you're losing weekly/daily and constantly losing time, etc.

 

On this point the favorable idea to date was to make the criminal pay the bounty through cash or labor (or both). I forget where the specifics are on this thread.. but we did cover it. If the criminal pays then exploiting for profit because very difficult. Even if they intend to 'pay through labor' if this is well balanced then the amount of labor should not produce more or less currency than the value of the reward for capture. Or in other words the amount of profit would be roughly the same as putting out the same amount of effort through legitimate work. In theory at least.

Let me run some numbers in an example to give everyone a more precise vision for my take on this.

Let's say a criminal works hard in their life or crime to run up a total bounty of 100,000 gold. This would be the cumulative bounty for all crimes. Now let's say they're thrashed and caught by a bounty hunter. The reward for starters wouldn't be the full 100k.. it would be something more like 20k out of the 100k.. BUT that 20k is now paid right away because the criminal has to pay it.

Now let's say upon capture the criminal happens to have 20k in gold on them.. that is confiscated right away to pay off their total bounty. Since that is enough to pay the reward the bounty hunter gets it and the criminal's total bounty is now 80,000 which they must now work off through labor.

Now let's say the criminal only has 10k on them. That is confiscated and the criminal has to work off 90,000. Once they've worked off enough to pay off the reward.. the bounty hunter can collect. IF on the other hand.. the criminal then escapes prison or labor camp or however it's set up.. and assuming during the escape they get their money and equipment back.. then the bouty hunter recieves nothing except a bit of fame/prestige for the capture.

On the other hand if they work off the full 90,000 remaining the bounty hunter will have recieved the 20k reward.. but the criminal will have done 90k's gold worth of work paying off their entire bounty. If the pair are partnered trying to exploit the system for gold.. this is roughly a net loss of 80,000 gold.

The criminal could escape after working off just enough for his partner to get paid.. but this would be more or less breaking even. At best you could exploit this to pay off your own bounty by breaking even but you'd never make a profit off of it. Plus you could even break that exploit by saying the bounty hunter only gets paid AFTER the criminal has completed their sentence.. or in the very least completed enough of the sentence to ensure a net loss.. then incurring a decent bounty for escaping prison also.

 

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were.. I was simply lamenting that certain aspects of RP couldn't be counted as PvP and making a tongue-in-cheek comment about 'dishonoring ones little sister' and the usual implications of that could be considered a form of PvP.. if you catch my meaning.

On compensation for the victim(s).. I did post an idea about that earlier where a victim that reports a crime against them could possibly recieve a portion of the criminal's bounty once it's paid off. In order for them to recieve their item's back however it would be easy enough to keep track of a stolen item's last owner but the criminal would still have to be in possession of it in order for it to be returned.

On reflection the reporting of crimes for compensation could also be exploited provided the victim was also the bounty hunter.. so maybe that's not such a great idea. If the crime was theft it MIGHT more or less balance itself out.. but a murder charge wouldn't need to cost the victim gold so they could turn a profit if they stacked crime over crime.. So maybe that form of compensation isn't such a great idea after all.

So then how to make justice more interesting for the victim remains a substantial challenge. I'm certainly open to suggestions.

 

Gotcha!
Question/Possible Exploitation: What do you do if the criminal's friend decides to 'collect the bounty' and then just pays back that money to the criminal after he's paid? I realize by your system he'd be paying more money/working off things that can't be exploited or returned. Just thought I'd toss that out there though.

Second question: How does working off your debt to society work? Are you jailed till you work it off? I see that getting really borring really quick for the criminal player and probably a poor game mechanic in that case. How do you make sure the criminal shows up for their work if they aren't jailed? (If you posted this already please just let me know, I just don't remember reading on this yet and am curious how you see this working.)

 

Upon reflection the thought occurs.. in SotA you can't BE a victim unless you're flagged for PvP.. how many PvPers are going to just sit around acting like victims? Is this REALLY a big problem? Would not most retaliate if given the chance?

Then I remembered some suggestions I made for thieving though I don't remember in which of the many theft related threads it was so I'll recap the idea here.

First keeping in mind that a thief isn't shown to anyone as a theif unless someone catches them in the act.

So a thief picks your pocket and nobody (including you notices). Having committed this act, the victim can now attack them freely. except there are no witnesses so you just don't know that you can attack them freely. This status remains until the thief maintains a certain 'safe' distance from the victim for X amount of time AND the thief must also no longer be in possession of the stolen item for X amount of time. This gives the victim the opportunity to track the thief down. So the thief isn't safe until they've fenced off or stashed their stolen goods and kept a safe distance. Naturally this timer is set relative to their most recent crime.

Now IF they're witnessed.. any witness can call them out.. call the guard etc and they will be visibly flagged for any victims. Time to run I think.

 

As far as I'm concerned if for any reason the bounty hunter/friends wants to give the money back.. *shrug* so long as they haven't earned a profit I don't see a problem.

As for paying off their debt.. my thoughts on that were to give them several options. Some people liked the idea of community service which could be appropriate for lesser crimes. I've thought there should be a variety of options from working mines to crafting to working as a gladiator. All of these options allow them build skills in a way they might like depending on their prefered play style.

So if the criminal is a smith or wants to learn smithing they could go make weapons and armor for the local guard.. mine ore in a local mine.. entertain the masses in the arena etc..

Whether they do this from the confines of a prison system or labor camp.. whatever seems best.

 

You could attack another player with a contract.
What we came up with was maybe a wanted poster or bingo book of contracts.
Once you have that contract the player becomes flagged so that you could attack him.
But like I've been saying for a contract that was player reported the contract could only extend to nearby areas.
Someone dishonoring your sister should not be global but those in your town may have a problem with that.
So if the player is outside those areas he would not be flagged for attack.
I'm still for some kind of color like UO to show they are flagged.

 

And if it were a bogus bounty, that wouldn't be a crime? It should be, and criminal contract killing should be punished as well.

Just by taking out a contract on a person who has done no harm, you should not be able to flag an innocent person with a bogus contract .

I am still of the opinion that player contracts can be abused, and should be disallowed.

 

Even if there was a bogus contract it would only involve a small portion of the game.
But maybe the petition needs to go through a few hands before it ever gets passed so as to minimize corruption.
The trick would be to find trustworthy leaders to sign off on the contract.

But yes some towns may be full of corruption and many who journey there may be treated bad.
I'd say stay out of those towns.

 

A way to encourage good governments may be to allow them to expand.
Either by governing nearby hex's or expanding the hex they are in.
Or like giving new houses, shops, etc to them.

 

I think the challenge for false accusations is how does the innocent deal with that without being treated like a criminal?

No matter how I look at it.. victims get the short end of the stick. Which is unfortunately realistic.

 

Well, the simple answer would be to not allow for false accusations. There is still plenty of opportunity for "good guys" to get a bounty. A darker, Buccaneer's Den type town might put abounty out on goody two-shoes types who try to bring criminals to justice. Thus, bounty hunters could get bounties just for doing their job. Equal opportunity "don't stick your neck where it doesn't belong" gameplay.

 

And you expect me to trust other players on this? Not likely...

Taking and fulfilling a criminal bounty, essentially murder for hire, should earn the bounty hunter a persistant criminal/murderer flag. One more target for Anti-PKs in that case.

 

In the case of the murder for hire scenario then.. the logical path to take would seem to be that criminals could only take bounties out on the player(s) that killed them (and NOT in self defense)... or possibly that the target must have successfully collected a bounty.

 

*Edited at the bottom of my prior post - keeping it all together.

 

Great discussion. I like the implications of such a system for PVE as well. Instead of repeatedly killing VanCleef in his underground hideout, we could have criminals that go about their own lives and can be caught and delivered to justice. When they get out, they go back to their old ways robbing and stealing and whatever. There might even be NPCs that live as criminals until someone brings them to justice, and then they reform their lives, changing the storyline and opening up new material. This is another area that the virtues could be incorporated - I'd like to see choices like the ones in the Gypsy's questions come to life in situations within Shroud.

+1 to wanted posters & disguises & bingo books! Maybe a bounty could specify Dead or Alive. I like the thought of using this system to encourage non-lethal combat.

 

I like that thinking @rild. A non-PvPer could still be a career bounty hunter if they're going after NPCs which only makes sense. Such an individual may be tempted to start engaging in PvP going after avatars.

Some other thoughts (and hopefully I won't forget any this time).. but in thinking about the.. "criminal bounty" or maybe a better way to look at it is a rogue bounty.. as Owain described it contract killing. In these cases, a criminal able to put out bounties on 'good' characters that have killed them. Since no law was broken the system doesn't apply a bounty. The entire bounty is provided by the criminal. Also there's no prison system or 'debt to society' for the target to pay off.. so actually killing them works in this scenario. It really is a contract killing. Which of course is also a crime..

Basically what I'm getting at is I don't see the usual exploit since all of the bounty is from the player and it sounds like an interesting dynamic for hardcore PvPers.

This whole discussion almost makes me interesting in a criminal character.. almost.. not quite.. I never could pull it off well but I have a sense that PvPers could have a lot of fun.

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone else I wanted to say.

 

There are ways to deminish the exploits. It worked well in SWG.

-Don't have bounties increased by crimes against NPC.
-Have only 1 or 2 bounty missions available at a time for one Hunter. If the bounty is not completed with in X time then the mission is lost to that person.
-A friend might be able to pick up the bounty mission but if a bounty hunter can only pick up 2 missions at a time and the target is not named until after you get the bounty then it would be harder to exploit.

My example would be.... I am a hunter and I pick up my 2 random bounties for say Mystic and Bloodgood. I now have 12 hours to find my targets. Bounties given for only on-line toons. If they log before I find them then too bad. I can't get new targets for 12 hours. If I catch or can't catch my targets I still can't get new targets for 12 hours.

I always found it to be fun to be both the hunter and hunted. SWG let you choose the level of bounty you were after. Usually the higher the bounty the harder the player was to defeat. When you lost as the hunted you always wanted to know how much you were worth.

 

What happened to InsaneMembrane?