Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by TheGrinch, Apr 14, 2015.

?

Do you like the card combat system in it's current state?

  1. Yes, it is the best thing since sliced bread.

    99 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. No, it sucks more than a vaccum cleaner

    170 vote(s)
    63.2%
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  1. Freeman

    Freeman Avatar

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    You give the reasons for your opinions and we dig deeper getting a better understanding of each other and try to meet some middle ground?

    You realize that saying "it's an opinion" does not mean it can't be wrong. Or that with further conversation one of us might change our mind? Or someone reading who hasn't made up their mind gets a better sense of things?

    Because some if what I said is opinion. Some is question. And some is definition, and debatable.

    I'm trying to give you a platform to make your case here.

    You quoted that line in your response. So... What are you doing there?
     
  2. Jordizzle

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    I'm not here to change your opinion, I'm okay with your opinion being different from mine. I'm just posting my opinion so that It can be seen. .isn't that what this medium is for? I hope you realize I have never said anywhere that I can't be wrong. . feels like you're trying to make it seem like I'm saying something I clearly didn't say for the second time now.. . I'm one to believe that no one's opinions are wrong. Your opinion is your opinion because you feel that way, can you really be wrong for the way you feel?

    You aren't giving me anything. . .I already have the platform to make my case here . .and I already made my case as to why I like the current system. I posted 9 reasons already LOL.

    I quoted that line in your response "If difference is the only thing you can say about it, or at least is the strongest point you can make for it, it's not good enough to stand on it's own. " to show you that I never made that argument .. you for some reason said that though so I wanted to show you that there are other arguments for the current system beyond the one that you seemed to believe I made for some reason unknown to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  3. StrangerDiamond

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    What the hell is Narnia ? is "Lewis" the same author as Alice ?

    They lived in the same time Tolkien did and I never heard of em ? I though I knew all fantasy books from the old days... this conversation about subjective opinion sucks...

    why don't you guys try to be objective ?
     
  4. Borg

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    Good to know that, I cant remember any of my posts being as hesitant as you are.....
    Some do, some don't.....
     
  5. StrangerDiamond

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    So when an overwhelming majority resolves that an opinion is fact and no longer subjective ?
     
  6. Jordizzle

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    How am I hesitant?
     
  7. Borg

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    Maybe I'm getting confused when you say you can be wrong......
     
  8. Jordizzle

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    You certainly are confusing me. You have deemed my opinions irrelevant , called me hesitant, and have stated that you have never posted a subjective opinion so so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
     
  9. Borg

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    I'm not judging your opinion , but the way you express it. If you had said I find game fun, I wouldn't quoted a single line about your post.
     
  10. Jordizzle

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    Semantics, should I add a disclaimer to all of my posts stating that I'm always speaking my opinion unless otherwise noted? And why should my opinions not be relevant?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  11. MalakBrightpalm

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    Worse, there's a doctor out in the hall who insists that his treatment will save the patient, but the family is objecting and refusing to allow it. So the patient is dying with a cure only a few signed consent forms away.
     
  12. Sold and gone

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    I wish there was an ignore thread feature. I am forced to ignore people now. Sorry but the sappy depressing tales of whoa have got to go.
     
  13. TantX

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    We're treating the patient with holistic medicine at this point. "You'll recover! Positive thoughts!" *cheers*
     
  14. Otha Livinded

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    It's really very hard to understand the reasoning for including an abstracted "card game" into the combat system of Shroud.

    The entire rest of the game is obviously an RPG where you play the part of a hero, or villain. Everything outside of combat is designed to mimic the way "real life" plays out.

    For instance, when you chop down a tree, you use something that looks like an axe. The tree looks like a tree. Your character aims at the tree and swings, sounds of chopping happen, the tree eventually falls down and you can collect the wood.

    Another example is found in decorating your house. It looks like some old fashioned home. You can make or purchase furniture for it, or capture trophies to place in it. Placement of furniture is handled "realistically". You can turn the items. You can hang pictures. You can set the lighting the way you want. The game UI is handled in a way to make this seem pleasingly realistic, so that you believe your character is "actually doing this".

    It facilitates roleplaying in a fun manner which is simple, direct, and uses today's technology in a way that feels "more realistic" than it did in UO all those years ago.

    After all, tech has advanced in computer games.

    So, your character, Vlad the unstoppable needs some maple-planks from the magical skellywood forest to make a nice chest of drawers. He ambles out, sword and shield in brawny hand to harvest it from under the non existing noses of the vile skeletons which rattle about there. A skeleton rises!

    In a game which continues with the logic of the other RPG friendly systems found in Shroud of the Avatar, your character would fight the skeleton with his sword in such a way that it seemed like he was wielding his sword and shield. The skeleton would be the visual POINT of the encounter. He would be scary...because....well....because he is a frightening skeleton.

    But instead
    of the logical skeleton versus hero encounter using visual nifty 21st century computer goodness, we switch to being forced into a card game.

    Now, I like card games. I have been the Euchre champion of southwestern Pennsylvania for longer than I like to admit. I was a professional magician at the age of 14. I actually love cards!

    But card games are very, very abstract substitutes for what amounts to war. For twenty years, computers have been able to grace us with superior ways of mimicking fighting. With a computer, you can actually show sword wielding, magic spells being case, people and monsters hopping around in ways you never could do back in the hoary 1970s days of pen and paper and graph paper.

    It really is not hard to figure out that stitching a card game into a modern RPG's combat system that other systems don't use in the same game is a pretty bad idea- even before it's ever tested.

    It would be quite a lot like taking a goat that used to pull a cart, put it into the trunk area of a new red mustang automobile, cut out the floor of the trunk so that his feet can reach the pavement, and expect your car to accelerate faster when you floored it.

    Sure, you would have more goatpower.....but the car's engine and the goat would not be particularly compatible, you would leave goat **** all over the road behind you, and mostly, your red sportscar would simply stink more than it did.

    It just isn't a sound idea to begin with- even if you dress the goat in a skirt, give it sunglasses and cut a hole in the trunk hood so it can see where it's going.

    It's all just tossing more time and effort into a poor concept which is never likely to get you anything except traffic tickets and mean letters from the humane society.

    And someday you will have a flat, and find that the goat ate your spare.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  15. MalakBrightpalm

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    The way you have chosen to present your arguments and opinions in this thread is, in my opinion, a waste of pixels.

    These are not random discussion forums. These forums are for crowdsourcing the game. The only reason ANYONE should post here is in an effort to increase the constructive community effort to make the game better.
    The reason so many people here are complaining about the combat system is because they HONESTLY believe that the combat system is poison and will tank the game. They believe that changing it drastically is the only hope.
    Now, when you disagree with them, factually or based on opinion, we WANT to hear it, but not just "I agree with myself to disagree with all of you". That's not productive. That's useless. That's where you are drawing all this negative feedback from.
    It's not that people disagree with your ideas, and therefore disparage you. Many of us are reading your posts, looking for you to make points. But if you think that disagreeing is a bad thing, then this forum won't do you much good, or get much good from you.

    We didn't come here to agree about everything, we came here to debate everything.

    But only because the family doesn't believe in this newfangled "transplant surgery" hokum. Bah, new heart, who ever heard of such an idea!
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  16. Jordizzle

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    The negativity is not coming from being disagreed with. If you would read my replies to the negative comments here you would see that I am perfectly fine with having a difference of opinion. It's the telling me my opinion is irrelevant that is causing the negativity. No one even asked me to further support any of my opinions until after I was told I had no voice here. I'm sorry but just because you disagree with me. It doesn't mean you can silence me. I came here to talk about the combat system but you guys have turned this into an argument over semantics, That's unproductive.
     
  17. MalakBrightpalm

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    You misunderstand me.
    *I* said the negativity isn't coming from people disagreeing with you, I hardly need YOU to tell ME that.
    I did read your replies, as I said, and found them wanting in content. I never said that you had no voice here, and am in fact trying to encourage you to use that voice, albeit to do more than whine. I didn't actually SEE someone say that you have no voice here, if they did it likely got edited by the dev team, as that kind of comment is not allowed. We ALL have a voice here. I'm so sorry that people didn't tell you to include more detail and support in your posts until now, but that IS what you should be doing. You also shouldn't have needed to be told to do it, as it is basic logical method to provide evidence supporting one's statements and theories.
    You have NO IDEA what I agree with or disagree with, nor have I made any effort to silence you. I think you should spend less time worrying about what others think and more making your statements clear. Clearer than they have been. No, clearer even than that. Make logical arguments backed up by quotable, referenceable phenomena.
    Go back to what was said to you, and what you responded with, and you will see that semantics is not and never was the focus of it. The semantic debate over the veracity and nature of individual opinion simply distracted from the underlying disagreement over the validity and "fun" factor of the card system. So, let us return to the card system. And I must point out that "It's just my opinion" is a meaningless statement. Nobody ever accused you of speaking with the voice of God, or of stating incontrovertible fact. It was clear from the beginning that you were expressing your opinion, and I think I was not alone in assuming that you were Homo Sapiens, and that your opinion should be subject to review by any listening to it.

    What *I* am saying to you is, speak, but make clear points. Instead of feeding the trolls and responding to every negative comment, let your posts describe exactly what you think and WHY, and when you show us your position, you may win converts. Or make friends. Or even discover someone who can show you something you missed.

    And any of THAT would be constructive. Productive, even.
     
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  18. Jordizzle

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    "But if you think that disagreeing is a bad thing" - I was trying to say that I'm okay with people disagreeing with me and that any negativity from my part is a response to being told, NOT BY YOU MalakBrightpalm, that my opinion is 100% irrelevant. Borg said this to me as a response to my list of reasons I posted as to why I like the current combat system. It all went downhill after that, as the conversation was turned into an argument over semantics rather than a discussion about why I enjoy the system.

    I know YOU PERSONALLY didn't tell me I have no voice here. Borg insinuated that with his "100% irrelevant comment" and then Freeman supported that statement through private messages to me. Look at Borgs response to my list of reasons why I like the current combat system. I'm not going to waste my time explaining why I've come to my opinions to people who immediately see my input as irrelevant. If some one really wants me to explain how I've drawn a conclusion about anything they can ask in a civil manner which no one has, otherwise I'm not going to automatically explain things like. . . why I think something is fun when anyone with a brain can deduce I probably find something fun, because I find it enjoyable.

    Again, I haven't said that you personally have made any effort to silence me, however others have by telling me my opinions are irrelevant. I don't care what others think, but I'm not going to waste my time when it's obvious that they think my opinion doesn't matter.

    Thanks, I also agree that I have been met with trolling and negativity here.
     
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  19. Galdar Grimmstone

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    NOTHING is black an white, yes or no.

    The current state of the card system is the best it has been. Your moving in the right direction but it still needs work.
     
  20. Freeman

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    Was going to leave this alone, but feel like I have to address this publicly:

    Untrue. In fact I made every effort in making you feel like you had a voice here including reaching out to you in private to clear up your misunderstandings about what was said, what it means, and how it is in no uncertain terms not a personal attack.

    For transparency, what I said in private was:

    Read what is said there. "Without reasons why, your opinions are irrelevant." We can't work with them. We don't know how you got to those opinions, and can't use them to continue the debate. You're free to have them. Even say them. But they aren't adding anything relevant to the discussion.

    We'd all love you to actually help us understand why you think things. But, like many others, you don't want to. That we don't take your opinion at face value and dig deeper, you've begun personal attacks. Again, the reason I reached out to you in the first place.

    It's not trolling to ask you to defend your points. We have to all the time. It's part of a healthy community.

    This was civil:

    Again, as I said in PM. I'm going to just ignore you from this point forward. In a way, you were a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm sorry for that, but I'm not going to help derail the thread further. Good luck.
     
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