Let's settle this once and for all. Card combat, Good or Bad

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by TheGrinch, Apr 14, 2015.

?

Do you like the card combat system in it's current state?

  1. Yes, it is the best thing since sliced bread.

    99 vote(s)
    36.8%
  2. No, it sucks more than a vaccum cleaner

    170 vote(s)
    63.2%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Metlore

    Metlore Avatar

    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    I understand a lot of gamers like the controller as their primary gaming method. My only worry is in a game like this it may be too limiting.
     
    Lord Soliwilos likes this.
  2. TantX

    TantX Avatar

    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    You'd likely not have that many skills, not with the current tree designs. Too many points have to go into innates, after all; currently people have little more than 35 cards; that's roughly 8-10 skills' worth of cards (assuming some locked glyphs).

    Either way, you could hotkey them no problem, it's the comboing that would become an issue, and barely at that. ArcheAge has a clean combo system. Comboing skills isn't anything new. Either Skill A then Skill B creates effect C, or Skill A followed by Skill B makes Skill B become Ability C. There are real easy ways of doing this without cards, to the point that combo-based systems in MMOs are becoming the norm, not the exception. SotA isn't breaking new ground with combos in this regard.
     
    Lord Soliwilos likes this.
  3. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,217
    Likes Received:
    27,363
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Currently, I don't have 25 in a deck, but I do have 16. Whether I put in more than 16 will depend on how the skills will develop in future builds. I think the hotkey is more of a problem than the combo personally. Though its also designed so you can do multiple combos, so, like you could do triple combos, or combos of combos.
     
  4. TantX

    TantX Avatar

    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Often, less is more. Triple combos and combos of combos is a hop, skip and a jump away from chain rooting/stunning people or repeatedly knocking them down where they cannot fight back. Simply cannot balance such things without making them so cumbersome it's more efficient to just forego combos or keep them straightforward. There's a practicality and natural balance lost with that extrapolation.
     
  5. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,217
    Likes Received:
    27,363
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Its not necessarily about chaining attacks, but composing entirely new spells. Also, for instance, combining a spell combo with a melee move to change its effect.
     
  6. TantX

    TantX Avatar

    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Whatever it may be called, balance still has to be achieved. It's hard enough to balance range vs. melee in any game, slow nukes vs. fast DPS vs. tanking vs. whatever hybrid there is. Making a combo that creates new spells have to be meaningful; if they are too "meaningful" (ie, imbalanced), then it's broken and gets nerfed. If it isn't worth the effort to combo it, then you won't see it in practice.
     
  7. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,217
    Likes Received:
    27,363
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Yea, of course. Personally, I think there are plenty of meaningful things they can do -- for instance, just think of ways you can combine elemental magic -- or the ways that movements (provided by melee) change spell effects -- or spells within schools that can be combined to change the form of a spell. But I think that will have to be proven in practice.
     
  8. Ashlynn [Pax]

    Ashlynn [Pax] Avatar

    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    2,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Female
    Personally I think one of the best combo-magic systems was Magicka. And it felt like you really were combining elements. But the card system is nothing like that.
     
    Lord Soliwilos and argyle like this.
  9. Jordizzle

    Jordizzle Avatar

    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Thanks, I appreciate you clarifying what you meant now. I understand now. It's just that your first answer to my post had it's first line in all caps, the second line was a repeat of my points that I was absolutely serious about followed by question marks. .and considering my post that you quoted was directed at some one else, I reached the conclusion that you were attacking me. I hope you can understand my point of view. I apologize if my arguments for the current system were subjective. Freeman had made a comment directed to me about "if the only point you can make for the system is that it is different . ." which I feel was rather assuming and subjective in it's own right. . and I only wanted to tell him that I felt there were several other positives about the system, coming from someone who has put 5-10 hours into using it each week since it's introduction. I'd like to continue to be involved in the conversation and will do my best to be objective, although, I do not see how one can be objective when this thread is based on a poll where you either A) feel the system is the best thing since sliced bread, or B) feel that it sucks more than a vacuum cleaner.
     
    Borg likes this.
  10. Jaws2

    Jaws2 Avatar

    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    3
    We were assigning spells & actions to keystrokes almost 20 years ago. Exactly how was the combat in UO so terrible? There was/is no UI at all. It's still probably the best method around.

    Use the card system for a crafting mini-game or something & give us back old school combat.


    how it feels now...

     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
  11. TantX

    TantX Avatar

    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    It'd be one thing if the whole game was like this, like Puzzle Pirates is or something. But it's ONLY combat. If it's such a neat endeavor, make everything card-based: crafting, exploring/what instances are available instead of always being the same, etc. See how immersive it is for those players who have to deal with this in every facet of the game, not just the one they don't do much of.
     
    Scorpio-LakeSuperior likes this.
  12. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,217
    Likes Received:
    27,363
    Trophy Points:
    165
    I've watched Magicka, I haven't played it .. just watching it, it was really cool..

    Though, I think we're going to see some of that stuff. For example, I think we're probably going to get a steam spell by combining fire and ice, and I've suggested combining elements with Gust from air magic to create wide area winds. So, like Flame Fist + Gust -> Flame Wind. DarkStarr also put up some examples in his skills megapost, like Flame Fist + Fire Arrow -> Flame Jet. You could probably do Fire Arrow + Fireball -> Rain of Fire / Fire Storm. DarkStarr in that megapost also suggested "Fire Tornado", by using Ring of Fire with Gust, and a Mudslide spell which is Earthquake + Douse, and some others. Plus, you could probably create heat spells by combining sun with air. Or a magma type spell combining earth with fire. Or a sand spell combining earth with something. Anyway, a bunch of stuff that you can do, that I think will be upcoming.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
    Ravicus Domdred likes this.
  13. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,217
    Likes Received:
    27,363
    Trophy Points:
    165
    If it could be done in an appropriate way that would be fine :> "Double-click to craft" is pretty boring, IMO -- crafting could use some interactivity. The problem is doing something that feels appropriate.
     
  14. TantX

    TantX Avatar

    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,244
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Which is exactly why card combat is such a divisive issue: it doesn't feel appropriate.
     
    Aeryk and Lord Soliwilos like this.
  15. Freeman

    Freeman Avatar

    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    1,537
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Superior, WI.
    When designing systems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemantics
    1. A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.
    2. A complex system designed from scratch never works and cannot be patched up to make it work. You have to start over, beginning with a working simple system.
    What is deck combat's working simple system?
     
  16. Jordizzle

    Jordizzle Avatar

    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Is it the hotbar?
     
  17. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,439
    Likes Received:
    23,674
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Problem with that is that it simply creates a tier between scripters and non- scripters.
    Where scripters would just use a keymap to do the whole \+ 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 8, 2, 1, 3 sequence.
    Such tiers would ruin PvP, where everyone would have to script to stay competetive.
     
    Jordizzle and Freeman like this.
  18. Borg

    Borg Avatar

    Messages:
    674
    Likes Received:
    1,308
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Wouldn't it be easier just chaining different spells delivering extra effects as you successfully complete the right combo trigger combination?
    Its almost the same as it works right now the difference is now you have to manually combine glyphs (which I find quite annoying).
    Combining glyphs by simply chaining them on the fly in the right order/timing seems more natural to me.
    The chaining spells mechanic also needs planning, good timing, and if implemented with Dynamic Deck some luck on your draws.
    Any game mechanic is scripting susceptible anyway.
     
  19. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,439
    Likes Received:
    23,674
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes, I think so, I also think it would be much more immersive/fun for most in that specific attacks or counters would have a timing window where you have opportunities etc so you'd feel a sense of accomplishment if you got the combo(s) right.

    But some of the timing would be dependent on latency mitigation and similar obstacles. Which means that a lot of it would have to be client side, opening up for more checksums vs server and such.
    So a little more tech overhead in the implementation. Which unfortunately is a side where Portalarium is thin versus the demand in the dev cycle. (Hard to get core tech people late in a project and with no long term need after release the job would be short, giving that it would be diminishing returns vs cost).

    Definately. But some are easier to execute, and some are easier to detect. Preferably one would want a system where scripting is hard while easy to detect.
     
  20. Jordizzle

    Jordizzle Avatar

    Messages:
    798
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    I could dig this, but only if the dynamic deck is still involved. Without the dynamic deck and especially if glyphs were locked I feel people would begin to simply do the same thing over and over again. It's just the way things go, someone figures out an OP combo, uses it over and over, other people catch on. . then the combo is spread to everyone and before long that combo is being used by every person you go up against because it's unstoppable and every one wants to win. For example during an arena fight in ArcheAge, as a meelee fighter, you notice that there is a certain combo that is used on you by every single casting class, the fight starts, as you move closer to your opponent you get hit with chain lightnings, then when you get close you are put to sleep, then you are hit with a meteor, and if that doesn't kill you the player would chain lightning you until you did die. If you are a meelee character your only chance in that fight is interrupting the sleep spell and that is a very small window of opportunity, and is your only opportunity. It's not kool when you have player after player after player using the same combo because every one knows it's OP. That also makes it pretty much impossible for a lower level player to have a chance against a higher level player. With the dynamic deck though. . the player can try to use that same combo every time, but at least there is a chance for something different to happen. If the OP combo happens because of the luck of the draw that's great, but when you have tons of people doing the same thing to you over and over you realize that the only way you can win is by doing the same thing, before long you just have a boring game where the only thing that gives you an edge over someone else is if your gear is better.
     
    Ravicus Domdred and majoria70 like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.