Let's talk about things to do

Discussion in 'Quests & Lore' started by majoria70, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Sorry this is long but we need to make a difference in what get's added and what gets finished to a satisfying complete state in this game. We can have unsatisfying system after system. Let's get a grip.

    https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.co...ing-achievements-for-your-games--gamedev-3371


    Hello community. Now lets talk about things to do and the future implementation in the game.

    So I just have to say every time I hear of some new idea getting implemented and then stop hearing of another one getting implemented anymore I wonder about the direction we are planning to go in. Is this system I was excited about then not going to happen? hmmm

    So for example Darkstarr stated we will get in game achievements in the future. Which is pretty basic to any game except this one. Achievements =Tasks performed to give added reason to play, reason to do simple things,simple goals to achieve when you don't want complicated game play, or maybe you don't mind that as much but just want those tasks to do etc.

    Like for example why do I visit every scene in the game, why do I fish up every fish in the game, why do I eat every food in the game, why do I craft ever item in the game, and why do I climb every mountain, and on and on and on? This is the goal oriented player. He does not interact, he counts on the game to have these.

    Now this does not say it is the only reason for achievements but it is an added incentive which was mistakenly not put in this game. This was a very bad move imo and now the extensive coding it may take to do this at this time is a concern perhaps but what do I know. This should by no means be skipped over for anything even player quests which of course can be viable if done correctly. Which at the moment they are not. They are way too confusing imo because of lack of tools.

    Now how it has seemed to me in the 5 or 6 years I've been here is that focus gets taken away from one thing and added to another. Haphazardly trying things.

    Such as fishing a very early system in the game took 5 years to ever re-visit this system again and still it is a grind fest and did not get atm anything to take it out of that status such as reason to grind beyond trophies and then what, ummm well nothing, nada, zilch. No daily progressive quests at all giving tools of the trade and more as rewards for each day you do them. Oh but yeah you can now have a fishing contest which is a good thing.

    So already we hear of a questing type of player running out of quests and things to do. Now some may say well there are lots of things to do in this game but you forget we are talking about a quester in my example. He/she may not want to be a merchant, a land owner, a musician, a crafter, a dungeon builder, a role player, or any of the those. He may want to do quests and tasks and be involved in the game that way.

    So in talking about player made quests. I am not criticizing them but truly I support all of you but it really was hard for me to watch the live-stream on the player quests. I wanted to pull my hair out. The tools were horrible for this and what person would even do something like that well that doesn't know you perhaps ;). Perhaps a few but not any who don't want to interact with other players. You may disagree but imo we have to do better than that if we are going to get player made quests to be viable.

    So remember games that did implement player made quests? These quests in one game are on a bulletin board. You pick up the quest and you get the rewards and you never ever talk to that player if you don't want to. We definitely need that tool. Some quests can be more simple and easy. They do not need to be all a mass of confusion and they should have a picture of a scene of the quest and something to make it interesting to pick the quest up.

    So let's discuss tools to make this system viable and please make note I do not condone these being implemented instead of a viable achievement system but to have them both. One achievement or more could be even rewarded after completing a certain amount of player designed quests, but the ease of getting these quests definitely needs to stand out to be viable such as being able to pick them up on a NPC town bulletin board which are not used at all.

    This game needs the lore and fiber to make all areas of the game viable to visit again and again. We don't need to skimp on content that is after implementation easy to have in the game. We don't need a new system over that and especially a system that never gets fleshed out to be viable after the grind even those are one time uses over hours and then on to the next thing, which does not leave the game with player retention.

    We need good tools and good quest tracking such as a journal that doesn't drive us crazy. When we pick up a player quest it should have a sheet that tells a brief description of the quest and the reward. Completing the player quest should give an automatic as possible reward or tell how to pick it up hopefully not centered on player interaction. Here are examples of a quest log/journal and more and remember they are only ideas only:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  2. By Tor

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    Plus 1. I think daily quests are a must for this game. It doesn't seem like it would be too difficult for the devs to implement. I really enjoyed the random bounty hunters and monks that would appear in the roaming encounters. We need a lot more things like that!
     
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  3. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Yes and not just daily's but progression daily's that allow for doing them more than one day increases the rewards. Like catch of the day might give a recipe, fishing outfit, fishing pole, bait, and fishing title that provides a buff. Incentives to keep it interesting.
     
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  4. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Avatar

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    *took a deep breath* counting all those threads I wrote about a kind of well sorted quest journal over the past 5 years (not talking about blue sparkling! Wouldn't be necessary, however they are in)

    Watching day by day - over years - people telling, they don't know how to do/finish a quest and are confused what they have done and what they have to do furthermore.

    And now seeing a kind of well made chapter oriented design in the current crown ingame shop! Ok. It's possible :)
    Hope raising ... for something like this:
    Chapter I - Path of Love
    Chapter II - Path of Truth
    Chapter III - Path of Courage
    Chapter IV - Path of the Oracle
    Chapter V - . . . .

    I am listening over months to "Journal and Quest book overhaul" statements (since them every life stream repeated).
    And I would like to see a Quest System / Journal deep dive? Telling about where the train goes on, what's the main problem with the current system ...
    When will somebody start to work on that? (Well, I still hope, Q2 schedule will tell us, it will be done from April!)

    I just started a new Avatar testing the starter scenes and finding bugs I never met before ... like unanswered keywords ... or illogical statements from NPC.


    I am with you³: we need the quest / journal system overhaul as soon as possible to get rid of that feeling of "unfinished/bugged" storyline.
    So many people telling: I played through and I really have no sense what I have done and what's the story about!

    That's so sad to read! But - unfortunately - understandable because of all those distracting things ...

    I really enjoyed the information I got on the whole journey following all paths. But also was tired of technical stuff preventing to REAL enjoy it ...
    (Remember the "player xyz is on/offline"? This was just ONE of a few story enjoy killer!)
    Behind that technical stuff lies a good story ...

    And I don't understand, why a game, based on Episodes - STORY ORIENTED - was handled this way ...
    I don't know and I even don't want to know ;)

    I just want to see progress in better story presentation by taking away disturbing, distracting, annoying things, and providing improvements ...
    (I don't want to repeat all things I wrote over the last years, but try to catch the most important ...
    All together is a reason not to enjoy the story as it deserves ...)

    1. Get rid of underlined keywords in text by default (it's SO distracting, breaking the reading flow ... and brings player to click back and forth, giving a feeling of 'scrolling through repeading text walls', losing the 'red line' ...
    and YES I know we can toggle it off. I KNOW. But a new player won't know and gets confused by all that underlined words.
    Keywords at the bottom are good enough (same concept as Ultima VII, easy, works great!)

    2. A keyword which is klicked and provides NO new information should fade to grey. If a situation changed and new information is there, it should change to bright color ...
    Currently former asked words often are bright again ...

    3. Get rid of the input line. It suggests we could write what we want - but we can't, there is no intelligent parser - and we don't need one to follow a good story.
    There are only few situations, where a keyword must be writen (because it is not on the keyword list below). Insert those keywords. Finished.

    4. Dialogue Window: Only one more text line would prevent to scroll in over 95% of dialoges! = exactly one input line ;)

    5. Show User Interface parts on screen ONLY when we need them. For example: Our health/focus stats. Show them if we get attacked, for example, if we get attacked from behind (Archers, Mages) ... or starting a fight.
    Give auto hide by default to ALL symbols / icons (and yes, a toggle possibility if someone wants them all the time on screen) ...

    6. keep in mind: lesss is more! For example: It is not necessary, that each Soldier in Solace Bridge Outskirts provides the keyword "buy" ! Focus on what is really important for the story/quest.

    7. Also get rid of keywords, having no further meaning for the dialogue.

    Example:

    NPC: Greetings, Avatar! I am in need of your help!
    help . name . job


    Michael: Name
    Annabelle Mc Cloud: My name is Annabelle Mc Cloud!
    help .
    job
    [>>>There is no more reason to ask about her name, if the name is written always infront of NPC text!]


    Michael: Job
    Annabelle Mc Cloud: I am a member of the secret order to protect Lord British!
    help . secret order . job



    Michael: Help
    Annabelle Mc Cloud: It's a desaster! @Lord British is missing! We have to find him as soon as possible to finish Episode 2!

    Find Lord British . secret order . job
    [>>>After asking about help provides the REASON for help - not the word help again :)]


    So the keyword line won't bother with things we asked and where is NO REASON to ask again.
    Of course, if a person needs help again in another case, keyword 'help' would be provided again ;)


    My few ideas and thoughts for an easier story presentation. I am excited what will come at Q2 ...

    May the @DarkStarr and @Lord British force be with us :)
     
  5. Jaesun

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    Personally I absolutely detest daily quests (the Oracle one is fine, and actually fits the lore). That just turns the game into another job.

    When you login, YOU decide what your daily quest or activity should be. This is your own decision.

    If for whatever reason, you need Someone to give you a daily task, I’ll be happy to give you one. I can’t give you XP, but I can reward you with gold.
     
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  6. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Oh I know some do hate them but that does not mean a game does not need to have them. I meet so many players who want to just do that. So don't vote against the missing things this game does not have just because it is not one you care for. An achievement system was left off in starting to develop this game and that was a mistake still imo. The thing is many of those who are questers are also not social so they may not want to talk to you. ;)

    p.s. and some hate crafting. Is that any reason to not have crafting ;)
     
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  7. Katu

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    Not everyone likes to RP, in fact, I would say that most of the gamers don't like it, its a small club of players that like it.
    Xp and other rewards are the main hook of the daily/weekly/monthly quest. Those can be used to make player adventure the world, every inch. Add achievements too and you have nice mechanism to push player around the world.
     
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  8. kaeshiva

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    Its a fine line to walk, really.
    On 1 hand, if the "daily quest" is rewarding enough, then players may feel compelled to do it ("game becomes a job")
    On the other hand, if the "daily quest" is not rewarding enough, then players will ignore it completely, thus begging the question, "why bother implementing it?"

    I like the freedom and I guess, lack of urgency in Sota, in that I can log on and pretty much decide my activity for the day. I'm not shoehorned in any particular direction, unlesss @Minerva is on, in which case I am being dragged into a deco project :X. But the game itself makes no demands on me. I can go do what I like.

    We do have the "siege daily quest" which usually compels me, at some point, to step into a siege and clear it or, at least turn in some of my many accumulated quest items. The reward for it is "decent" but not "overwhelming" - meaning if I feel like doing a siege for the reward I will, but if I miss it, its not a crisis. More activities with a similar time requirement/reward would be welcome.

    Beyond what the game itself provides as a hard quest, I have given "myself" daily activities, like mine xx granite, pick/plant/water my crops, etc. so I have a reasonable schedule of self-imposed "things to do" around which I fit whatever I fancy on any particular day. My agriculture involvement is the only thing that is a 'hard requirement' though due to the water-it-on-time-or-lose-whole-investment system. It creates a kind of "must log on at least to do plants" paradigm, that I can choose to persist in doing or stop. "Must log on" activities are good at getting players online and playing perspective, but need to be carefully incentivized so it creates a "want to log on and do it" situation rather than a "huge setback if I don't" situation.

    Re: Achievements - yes, absolutely, not just achievements, but achievements that unlock some sort of minimal/progressive/additive benefit or, unlock titles/cosmetics or "things!" are definitely a way to keep all the completionists busy. They don't even need to give the player "power." Recognition is a powerful motivator. Like, having 100 base attunement (10x skills) in all magic trees - if I got an Archmage title out of this, I'd totally get off my butt and finish the chaos tree. Titles for mining 1000, 10000, 100000 nodes....killing xx/xxx number of different mob types, exploring every scene, learning the names of every npc in towns, etc. etc Give us things to do for years and we will stay for years and do them.
     
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  9. Feeyo

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    Thank you @majoria70 I fully agree with you. I am one of those many that do not RP. I love to do quests, is it silly gather x amount of whatever, catch x amount of fish or catch a specific kind of fish, kill x amount of whatever kind of quest. I do not really mind doing them, at least I have something to do. Lately when I log in I am so bored, there is nothing else then doing another exp farm run everyday. As I state its for the exp only as the looting is also pretty bad.

    I have seen all the scenes, and love to explore them. But exploring them over and over gets a bit boring also.
    Daily quests, achievements, gathering, and killing quests should be implemented. I fully understand that some players do not like daily or repeatable quests as they feel it is another job, well then just don't do them right?
     
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  10. craftymethod

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    I suggested once that quests could be color coded as to what story line they belonged to, but has not made it out of Jira if the task made it in :)
     
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  11. Jason_M

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    I like the idea of repeatable mini quests. I think treasure hunting serves this well (assuming future treasure hunts will resemble UO in mechanics/design).

    Another idea would be much larger - a fourth and totally optional quest branch. Not an anti-virtue quest line but a chaos quest line. Anti-order, if you will. Ethical.

    It would be even better if it were quite a bit more challenging than the "compulsory" quests.

    It would be a huge effort, but, if it were to release with the new quest system, it would allow the current players to dig into the new quest system seamlessly. A big loyalty reward. :)

    I wonder what manner of ethical challenges m' @Lord British could present in such a quest? :)
     
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  12. oplek

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    I'm also not opposed to minigames. Fishing should be a minigame of sorts, instead of just casting a line and you do/don't get something. You should have to pay attention to what's happening in the water, maybe throw stones to try to herd fish... try to lure sharks with blood, etc. In an ongoing efford to de-RNG the game, catching anything should be more UI-based than dice-roll.

    There could be procedural quests... you come across a murder scene, and you need to find clues and investigate, looking at what's actually in the scene instead of reading notes or talking to people. You report your findings to the constable, and you get one shot to accuse the right person.

    You come across a caravan that's under attack, and you can come in to rescue, or to assist the bandits (affecting virtues), defending against waves of attacks, or with more subtle solutions. This could include defense-placement mechanics for strategic defense.

    ... anything but:
    • Talk to NPC A
    • Run across town and talk to NPC B
    • Run back across town and talk to NPC A
    • Run across town and get item X
    • Run across town and talk to NPA A
    • Run across town and talk to NPC C
    • ....
     
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  13. oplek

    oplek Avatar

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    ... to clarify what I mean by the fishing minigame. Atlas has a semi-crude implementation, but more long these lines:



    Higher level fish could be more consistently placed, and much higher chance to catch, but would be more challenging based on the minigame.
     
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  14. Lars vonDrachental

    Lars vonDrachental Avatar

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    Already in the old forum I asked for a mechanic like the Tome of Knowledge (ToK) from the game Warhammer online.
    The ToK was a compendium of all you have done, who you met and where you have been.
    For example there was a bestiary-chapter. For each typ of monster there was a page e.g. for elder wolves with pencil drawings and basic info that were added to the bestiary I think the first time you killed one of these monsters.
    After killing 10 of them you achieved e.g. some basic infos about their resistances (weak against X, strong agains Y)
    After killing 100 of them you e.g. got a buff to do minimal more damage against these monster.
    After killing 1000 of them you e.g. got an item you could get just this way like a special wolves cloak.
    Exploring a special hidout of these monsters you got some additional background info
    I think there where even some named monsters you could kill to unlocked an entry and additional one-time swag at a special NPC.
    The tome was also you quest journal, you could read about your reputation, NPCs and the world itself, about pvp progress,…
    Maybe my memory is making the ToK look more spectacular as it was but I cannot remember to have seen somewhere a similar complex tool about your progress and if we could get even just a light version of it I would love it. ;)

    I think also in the old forum I asked for something like a public quest I remembered to have seen again in Warhammer online.
    As an example in a scene there was an ambush between some NPCs and some wolves continuously fighting each other. Players could continue their way to farm the scene or jump into the fight without the need to form groups and start helping the NPCs by killing the wolves. After a set number of wolves where killed the next wave started and much stronger wolves appeared. After killing them too finally the wolf’s leader and his followers appeared on the battlefield. Depending on the success and your participation you got a reward that was based on comparing the participating players. The ones who did the most work got the most rewards but even if you were just killing one wolf and logout you still had the chance to get a small reward in your mailbox as you were not forced to participate till the end. So to say your damage or your kill counter was compared with the other participants and the top 10 got some special rewards (loot boxes, larger amount of exp+gold) while everyone else got a small gift (small amount of exp+gold). And if you missed your chance 1 or 2 hours later the public quest startet anew.

    I think the closed in SotA would be the sieges or random encounters but I would appreciate it if we could join such a fight without the need to form groups and to still get some kind of reward.
    Maybe the devs could as a first very simply step announce as message of the day “Today we count all killed wolves and the top 10 slaughterers will get a reward.”. I think they did something like that during some of the past telethons with rabbits and dragons.
    A little bit more comfortable would be if e.g. the bounty guild (where you can exchange the random encounter slip) would offer a monthly leaderboard of the top monster hunters and rewards for them like a special title.
    Also some random monster hunter quest would be nice like:
    chopper quest (T1-T3): A client would like to get 5 rabbit skins. - reward could be 1000xp, 200 gold and 1 grey bag
    silver quest (T3-T5): The citizens of settlement A ask you to kill 10 wolves in scene B. - reward could be 2500xp, 500 gold and 1 yellow bag
    gold quest (T5+): A obsidian bear has eaten some of my beloved sheeps while I was traveling with them through scene C. Please kill this monster and bring me back the head as prove. - reward could be 5000xp, 1250 gold, 1 random bag

    Or maybe the bounty guild should generally offer rewards for specific monster loot. E.g. wolf head = 100 gold + 100 exp, bear head = 200 gold + 200 exp,... (I do not know if it finally would be good or bad but this way even trading exp would be possible and gifting a new avatar some heads would help him to get some exp and gold.)

    If they have later the tech I would like to see some random quests like the currently in separate scenes “outsourced” random encounters within existing scenes and best with an open quest system where everyone can join in and leave at any time. I guess creating spawn points that are just active while the quest is taking place wouldn’t be that complicated…I guess the part with the open quest system would be the more difficult part.
     
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  15. Minerva

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    I personally have more to do in this game then I have time to handle now. If people know me, you know I am on pretty much everyday. I have played for nearly 5 years and still have so much to achieve.

    We have run a number of players quests. My son had one years ago that those who completed it received an awesome real world certificate, @Lord British even received one. Our town has offered many, but @Arkah EMPstrike ,@kaeshiva (Shimizu) and @Scoffer have had a huge part in that. There could be more done to give tools, but part of the challenge is creating with only the tools we have.

    Events also hold a lot of planning and fun for the guild, town and community, like the upcoming Valentines Dinner.

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-brasserie-valentines-day-dinner-2019.150497/

    I can see making major changes in the interface coming in episode 2, but not before. The team as so much on their plate. Nothing is more important than the new user experience.

    I know the things talked about on this thread are things they have been discussing for a number of years. Jira has been told, but I know they have priorities and I trust this will come.

    Until then, we veterans, can help assist and make it work for the larger community.
     
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  16. Feeyo

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    Yes well, not all players like that what you are doing, I mean. I would not be happy at all running those things you do. I am not saying we do not need it at all, I have full respect for it. But its not my cup of tea.
    Quests, content, archivements and quest tracker is way more new user experience then you think.. It keeps 70% of the players busy in SotA.
     
  17. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    I know and I do have a lot to do as well. This isn't as much for us. This is for a complete game that is still missing basics. Not every player comes here to do projects and play the way we do. It is just missing details. Merchants should keep needing our help. Crafters should be allowed to do crafting quests and be a dedicated crafter.

    Some players come and have left Lord Baldrith included because we don't have tasks, dailies and achievements and more. Even the basic discovery system is lacking. I fear for treasure hunting if it is to be missing important details too.

    We cannot leave these things out in this game. Many of these are solo type players who don't want to be bothered with us. Imagine pledging $10,000 - $20.000 or more and then finding the game won't support this type of play. I do know some of those x-players.

    Edited
    Edited again
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
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  18. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Don't forget Steam already has Achievements for SotA.

    Anyone know how to do the "Home is where your heart is" and "City Of Cutthroat Hearts" achievements?
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  19. majoria70

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    Thank you for all those who do not know this but it still doesn't excuse the lack of it in game to track our in game progress and continue with things to do. I and many of those I mention don't play on steam and that is no excuse for not having an in game achievement system that does this game proud. Steam did not even come to this game until 2 or 3 years into development of the game. The coding to support an achievement system was not even added in during development per darkstarr. Not sure what the thinking was for this. My thoughts are that it would be less expensive to have a game that players made the content. Not saying that is a bad thing with very good tools for it but still very much a mistake to support this game for many types of players. How many have wandered the game soloing and not being able to find their game play in this game. That was a big mistake imo.

    Also I don't put down steam or those achievements but just sayin. :)

    edited
     
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  20. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Achievements system would be good, particularly if they unlocked things or gave some sort of small benefits, to encourage completionism and, in the time taken to do all these things, player retention, online time, active playing, etc. And basic achievements wouldn't be that hard to track as such, number of kills, number of trees chopped, ores mined, leather tanned, etc. Some of this already factors into the steam achievements anyway and the data is there (you could get reasonable ideas from running queries on the API for some things). Even if we all started -now- at day 0, it would be fun to rank all the stuff up. There's plenty of time later to expand into whimsy achievements, like climb the highest rock in x scene to get a passive jump height increase, How about die in every lava pit in the game, unlocks +5 fire resist permanently. That sort of thing. Opens up a whole world of possibilities.
     
    Feeyo, Jaesun, oplek and 3 others like this.