Leveling Progression for Crafting needs fixing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Elrond

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    People cant apply unlimited amounts of xp... and theres no place for new crafters in the game....but thats a topic for another discussion ..on how to make new crafters usefull .

    Right now my concern is on crafting leveling progression being fixed ...

    Im curious to learn why you feel punished ?
     
  2. Xiones

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    Crafting just needs to be fixed period....... Need to remove the Coto Repair all together and artifacts.
     
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  3. Gia2

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    There is a long list.
    PS: We need more players, not higher enchs
    PPS: dont wanna be mean :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  4. Violet Ronso

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    While I agree that at some point high end Crafters do get the best gear done, and thus newer crafters might feel like it is an unsurmountable mountain, but isn't this the case for adventuring experience too? Lower leveled crafters can still make similar gear, only with a few decimals lower, so where is the big deal most are making out of this?

    One thing that Elrond is maybe having difficulty getting across to you guys is the levelling curve, here is how it works for adventuring skills and passives :

    Adventuring Skills/Passives :
    Increase per level : Linear. Going from 20 to 40 in train strength will give you 10 Strength points. Going from 120 to 140 Train Strength will give you 10 Strength points.
    Exp per level : Diminishing. Going from 20 to 40 in Train Strength will cost you 33,910 Experience. Going from 120 to 140 Train Strength will cost you 467,204,740 Experience.

    This means you will always gain the same rewards by levelling, but levelling will become harder (WAY HARDER).

    and the you have Crafting skills, and here is where #JustBzusThings comes in...

    Crafting Skills/Passives :
    Increase per level : Diminishing. Going from 20 to 40 in Weapon masterwork will give you +0.2 to 0.4 stat points per masterwork. Going from 120 to 140 Weapon Masterwork will give you +0.1 stat points per masterwork
    Exp per level : Diminishing. Going from 20 to 40 in Weapon masterwork will cost you 3,391 experience. Going from 120 to 140 Weapon Masterwork will cost you 46,720,474 experience.

    This means you gain less rewards as you level, AND it becomes harder. Note that Train Strength is a 10x cost skill, while the Masterwork is a 1x skill. I chose a 10x skill for Adventuring because it was the one I knew the stats off the top of my head. for the next bit, simply remove the last 0 to get equivalent numbers.

    This means Crafters are being hit with diminishing returns on experience, AND diminishing returns on Levelling.






    For anyone who still can't figure this part up, let me explain what this does to NEW CRAFTERS... They ask questions, wonder how good their gear will get as they keep on levelling their crafting skills, compared to the time they will invest, and realise that WHY the hell would they invest any experience in crafting past level 100, because they will spend years of constant crafting grind to get minimal returns, and the higher they get, the worse it will get. Do you guys find it normal that you see 0 progression in 17 level increases? what kind of game gives 0 rewards for 17 levels in a row? Honestly this is why I can't be assed with Crafting. Bzus wanted to make sure there was a controlled injection of crafted items in the game, and he managed that, by scaring away from crafting a huge part of the players due to his dumb progression system, and those who think this makes sense clearly don't give a damn about crafting, but imagine if you would invest 400m experience in a combat skill, increasing it by 17 levels, to get NOTHING AT ALL from it? (ohh and don't forget at least for combat, 400m experience is ONLY 200 hours... 400M experience for crafting is 600-1000 hours of CONSTANT grind, without being bothered by the mobs that can still attack you in a scene...
     
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  5. Adam Crow

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    @Elrond the numbers you are talking about is the 1st mw only correct? Was their a benefit to a 3rd or 4th mw from 149 to 167?

    And you also chose the smallest possible numeric buff. Did any of the other masterworks go up on a first attempt at 167?

    Because as you know they scale up higher the later you apply them to an item. Seems to me like you may be leaving out some of the numbers to support your argument.

    What about for body slam mw or something with a high % like damage resistance mw?
     
  6. oplek

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    No, I don't think that's normal. Normal is hard caps.

    Yes, progression will stop, which is why the game needs something else to do than making your numbers perpetually go up (and I don't necessarily mean combat)... which is why Eve Online has hard caps, and yet has people playing for a decade or more. Yes, some people quit when progression stops. That's okay. The problem isn't people consuming the content of a game and moving on. That's to be expected, and is in fact healthy. The issue is the lack of new players to replace them... and that's a much more difficult sell to new players when the game requires years of grinding to catch up.

    The game should have some mercy towards those who compulsively grind away, unable to stop themselves.
     
  7. Gustach

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    In my opinion there is nothing to fix here... equipment is already too powerfull. One thing is to base the economy in player items (it is already) and other very different to turn the game item based.

    At same skill level (adv lvl) now it is equipment the factor that makes you better or worse. In my opinion that factor should be player skill (how good you play, no how high your skills are, like for example shield air)
     
  8. Elrond

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    I only had 2000 silver ingots available on test server ..they were just enough to take me to 167 and deplete my xp pool... i was interested in next 0.1 for avoid on first mw ... as shown in the example posted 149 to 167 - 0 increase ... Following all masterworks would be a very time consuming task ...days maybe .... just avoidance took me hours to track....
     
  9. Adam Crow

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    You don't really need to track them, but you know as well as I do that every other mw went up a tiny bit each time you raised your skill.

    Your making it sound like there is no progression at all from going 149 to 167.

    If the avoidance masterwork displayed is value to the hundredth or thousandth place, you would be able to see the progression for it. It prob gets rounded off in the display. Im sure you were only a few more points away from 1.8

    Maybe they should display the hundredth or even the thousandth place on that one so the progression is actually visible.

    Id be willing to bet a full set of plate at skill 167 will show a higher avoidance on the character stats (where the value isn't rounded up) then a full set at 149.
     
  10. Elrond

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    Without a reroll skill what you get first mw is what you use ...yes i know...next time ill train reroll.

    For the skills i presented as far as it is shown there is 0 progression displayed.

    Ok so the progression is there we just cant to see it :(

    Because giving crafters a 0.0001 or 0.01 or 0.1 to str for 400 mil xp would suddenly make everything alright and prove that leveling progression is real ?

    I really dont want to debate how useful is an invisible or visible 0.something ...i just want to see a real leveling progression for crafters ...as a crafter i thought you would want the same thing ..maybe youre happy with how things are ... im not .
     
  11. Sulaene Moon

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    Thinking out loud, would there even be an end to progression or would it continue on forever only to get smaller and smaller a tick the longer you go?
    I would be intrigued by a crafting or fighting skill where you could progress forever. I don't think any game has that do they? Shroud could be a first!
     
  12. Adam Crow

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    You have progression. The values go up the same amount each time you raise your skill. The only thing that changes is the xp cost to raise it. I'm much happier with the changes they have made to crafting once rerolls were added to be honest.

    Its a soft cap, you made it way further than I have for any one skill. I don't have anything at 149 because I don't have as much producer xp as you do.

    Eventually it just isn't worth it to raise a skill anymore because it costs too much. Each players has a different threshold of when that is. It works the same for adventure skills, it's the way the game is designed.

    You can't just make avoidance go up way more, it's already very powerful at the level you have it at.

    I think the solution is showing the thousandth place so you can at least see it going up.
     
  13. Mishikal

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    I will reiterate that there is in fact a hard cap, of 200. There is also clearly a soft cap, as .00001 isn't going to really show up as anything useful. Elrond's testing shows there's really no point in leveling past 149, since the amount of change is so minuscule as to be pointless and would have no real effect on the resulting gear. So you could say, Shroud has both a hard and a soft cap. ;)
     
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  14. Gageman

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    My friend, you have just exposed the core problem with the Dev's thinking and touched it with a needle.
     
  15. Gageman

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    How exactly are new crafters punished? Everyone starts at the beginning and follows the road as far as they want. Do you think that a new player should be able to craft at the same amazing quality as Elrond , Kid Twist Or Robyn Hood after 1 /1000th of the time in?
     
  16. Gageman

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    I think that sounds like the "Easy way out", I mean, instead of actually solving the problem. Kind of sounds like WoW to me.
     
  17. Pifester

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    I wont say punished, but at a severe disadvantage. They are starting out, and the time/resources required to get to Elrond, Kid Twist, Robyin Hood - or any high level crafter's level is daunting. And the time it takes to get to their level, those high tier crafters are usually working their skills even higher. The difference in xp between a starting player and a upper tier crafter is in the range of 500m to 1b xp. How can a newer player make up that gap in less than a few years?
     
  18. Mishikal

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    It's not that hard to get to 100, and as you can see, you get less and less return on your XP investment for every level you go past 100. So yes, someone who is starting out isn't going to immediately craft top of the line gear. But you can get really damn close at a fraction of the XP cost fairly reasonably. I.e., so say their +str bonus is 10.5 instead of 10.9... It's definitely a difference, but not as significant as say, +5 vs +20. I.e., they should be able to put out fairly decent gear w/o spending 3 years to get there.
     
  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    I believe that the opportunity to get that high is closed off, or the bar seriously raised, by the table top catapult nerf. Am I correct in that?

    Is it feasable any more to even get the quantity of crafting points we are talking about?
     
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  20. Gageman

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    Well OK, I see what you are saying, but maybe they aren't. OR they can spend six years perfecting their craft like those guys did. If I am not mistaken , Kid Twist and Robyn Hood have left the game, so Elrond is the last true master standing , or one of a diminishing few. As attrition draws away the old masters , new ones can take their place. I mean, its like saying a new player feels "less than" because he cant solo the whole game like Mac after 3 weeks. Damn millennials... lol.