Leveling Progression for Crafting needs fixing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Elrond, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Elrond

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    You can pretty much buy any recipe for 1k-3k gold ...theyre not really a dam that cant be overcome by new players.

    Since then xp was doubled for crafting stuff and there are methods of gaining xp these days which are just as beneficial if not more ...

    That doesnt have much to do with leveling crafting ...

    Why not ..if theyre dedicated players its possible - 100-200 mil craft xp/ month totally douable . On the other hand if you log in once a week play for 10 mins and wonder why you cant reach the highest level on server...well

    Obviously ..else we d just have every new player start the game at adv lvl 141 where Mac is atm.

    Of course ..for many players its the journey that matters ...the getting there part ....and i dont believe in saying never...with enough dedication anything is possible . I have a few players id like to catch up with, who have few hundred mil more craft xp then i do ...it may or may not happen doesnt mean ill stop trying or that ill quit over it .
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  2. Elwyn

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    Most of that original generation of yellow bundle recipes are pretty easy to get now just by cruising Novia Market and other market POTs. I finally got my last one the other day, it was one of the heartwood recipes. They should remain like this unless we get a sudden jump in new players.

    It seems that you're comparing yourself with the dozen or two crafters who go whole-hog about it. Most players don't care enough about crafting to go that far.
     
  3. Violet Ronso

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    That is the thing, either put in a hard cap so that you can't raise your skills higher (especially since there seems to be close to 0 progression anyways), OR implement a way to have some sort of progression the whole way, and one that is actually visible. You say the progression is linear even for crafting skills, but I have not seen that, and most high level crafters I've spoken to don't seem to agree, one even telling me that past 110-120 it isn't even worth thinking about it because the progression curve nearly flatlines (and Elrond's examples with Avoidance and Strength pretty much show that... 17 levels without any VISIBLE progression). And you know what? 17 levels without any visible progression is not normal... Skills usually show up with 1 decimal, so that means that in 17 whole levels, it didn't even give me 0.1 increase? Seriously that is not fun, not fun at all... I am level 98 Weapon Enchant, and that is my highest of all my specific MWs/Enchants, and I can't even feel assed to work on it because the investment vs return is so abysmal, I prefer letting the wackos (no, not @iwacko) do the work for me at that point, because between the boring as hell crafting time bar, the very low experience gains, and very high resource costs, I just can't feel like any of it is justified, and it's even less justified when you look at those 17 levels of "Progression" that Elrond showed off.

    So, either work towards a real hard cap, or work towards a real progression LINE (read : Not curve).
     
  4. Gageman

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    Well, I would say that there is something to be said about being in on the ground floor. Any of these players could have chosen to join the KS campaign and put their money at risk for this advantage. I also submit that while it is more difficult to fill your book with recipes now, its not by any means impossible. Gold is super cheap these days and tons of it drop.
    This sounds like an exploit. I didnt know about this. So if YOU exploited 15 million crafter XP every new release, that sounds like something that doesnt really apply to the current arguement. You did not HAVE to exploit the XP, you could have chosen not to. Ports incompetence added to unscrupulous game-play by some individuals does not equate an adequate reason to cap all crafters .
     
  5. Arkah EMPstrike

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    So, skills were originally gonna be capped. You would reach an adventure level and be able to unlock the next level of a skill. Could only raise the skills to 5.

    When the use based system happened, being able to continue to level skills, at thecost of being harder to level the higher you got and more skills you got, creating a soft cap that you could push against, and decay was the mechanic designed to push back, creating an equilibrium that effectively made it much harder to level as you went on the more skills you took.

    200 is not a cap. It was a stopping point in the code that is not intended to be reachable, that people only know about because of the teams transparency about how thier game works. Its a soft-cap system. So if 200 gets reached, you can bet that it will become 300 instead.

    The folks who grind thier skills relentlessly create a larger and more uncloseable gap between them and new players.

    Tldr, this entire system is basically UO’s system without caps, but with new controls to force you to make choices, or push against the endless tide with expectation for it to be harder and harder to squeeze out every last drop.

    The benifit you get for 20 levels should be at the most be the exact same for 170 to 180 as it is for 40 to 60. If anything more at all, some exclusive stuff that just looks unique should be available at higher and higher levels. Not increasingly better power-per-level gains
     
  6. Adam Crow

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    I disagree. That will cause a power creep on crafted gear and then everything else like skills and mobs will need to be adjusted. Things would get adjusted based on the highest level crafters skills and all other crafted stuff would be too weak to deal with the mobs essentially making them useless.

    I would prefer if they just added benefits for reaching certain levels to create goals for the high end crafters.

    For example maybe at 100 you gain the durability masterwork, then at 120 its benefit increases. Then at 140 it doesn't count against you as an attempt, so if you apply it on the first masterwork your next masterwork will still be a 95% chance of success. Then at 160 the benefit increases again and so on. This is just an example of a way to give incentives to raising skills very high without completely screwing up the balance of crafted gear. That would allow the high end crafters to really work the items a bunch more and help make all that xp spent worthwhile.

    Don't get me wrong Elrond, I enjoy crafting right now but im not saying it shouldn't be improved. I agree with you that something should be done to make it worth all that xp spent once you start getting to the 140+ range.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  7. Adam Crow

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    Also want to point out that the other masterworks are going up. So there is progression, it's just not visible on those two specific masterworks because of their low values. That is the big flaw I see with this argument.

    Easy fix for avoidance is show it a different way. Multiply its displayed value by 1000 or something so that the number displayed is 1709 then 1720 then 1733... etc. Then players could tell how powerful the actual masterwork is when they look at a piece of gear. Or if that's too confusing just display it to the thousandth place like I suggested before.
     
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  8. Gageman

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    Elrond my friend, please stop suffering the foolishness the Crows are cawing at you. You are being trolled by this guys minutia, but worse, it is taking the thread off target. Simply do like all the rest of us do and add him to the "Pay no mind" list and proceed making the valid arguments about the horribly broken soft cap.
     
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  9. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Huh. Yeah, that changes things. I somehow thought actual gains per level were tapering off as skill increased, which is (or would be) horrible and punishing on top of a massively increased XP cost.
     
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  10. Illiaro

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    You should post a guide to leveling then. I'm sure it would be useful to everyone.
     
  11. Adam Crow

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    I think it increases the same, but now I'm not 100% sure from what others are saying.

    If anyone has numerical evidence to support either side of the argument, I would love to see it. If not, I'll run some tests on QA and try and figure it out.


    Edit: I was completely wrong. Sorry for the misinformation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  12. Sakarisei

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    Honestly I can understand you Elrond, plus that thing is ridiculously annoying.

    However, I can understand the intentions of the staff of not giving huge advantages for avoiding people spending many years, and then, being virtually unbeatable by the others.

    In other cases, I think until people reach a serious producer lvl like lvl 120 or even more, @Chris will update it for avoiding ppl to get the same stats like them.

    And finally, I'm not writing they shouldn't change it. Of course they should do it. Just very few reaches that lvl ammount of XP, especially in crafting.
     
  13. Sentinel2

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    I would hope at some point Avatars can make bows better than Envy bows. You would think :D
     
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  14. Elnoth

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    I tested this on QA just then (and found a bug) and the data shows that the skill increases are more regular at lower levels, so it is a double curve of skill increases diminishing plus XP cost increasing. The rather rough data can be seen in this QA bug thread I posted
     
  15. Elnoth

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    For what it's worth, I am with Elrond on this one. The XP required curve limiting progression is enough, adding a second curve is overkill and is not needed (and I believe this should be applicable to ALL skills)
     
  16. Elnoth

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    OK, so I accounted for the bug through some errors I made, but I also took the time to investigate wether there was diminishing returns as you levelled MW skills, and 100% there is. Here is the data to prove it:

    [​IMG]

    So what you see is:
    7 levels at 1.1
    14 levels at 1.2
    17 levels at 1.3

    You also see it more clearly in the armor defense % MW valaues, which increase .1% with every level at the start, and by skill lvl 40's only increase .1% every 3 or 4 levels.

    So 100% there is diminishing returns on the results as you level, and we all know about the XP curve which is there as well as a soft cap.
     
  17. Pifester

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Did a little tailoring, these are cloth boots, if the number is green - I got that effect while in that level, if its yellow, it increased since the last time I got that effect. If there is no shading in that cell, I did not get that effect while master working that level. As you can see, level 164/165 is worthless. A good stopping point would be (IMO) 146 to 148
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  18. Spungwa

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    while I agree the progression gets pointless. Damage avoidance is the worst example, unless my understanding is wrong. Armour pieces have a max damage avoidance they can have that make any progression, long before these high numbers, pointless.

    Eg I can put a 1.6 DA on for MW on leather boots, but I think, not in game to check. When you look at the DA you only get 1.

    Looking at the displayed DA on the piece, not the bonuses.
    Edit
    Does not appear to have changed. Looked on discord trade channel and look at the chest piece, +3.4 dam avoidance, but the stat above has 7 + 1.9, so all progression after 1.9 for da is pointless......

    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  19. Adam Crow

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    Sorry, deleted that last one.
     
  20. Adam Crow

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    I stand corrected. Sorry for derailing the topic with misinformed information!