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Make charging passive in free attack mode

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by DaemienX, Apr 11, 2016.

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  1. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    I definitely do not like this idea.
     
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  2. GreyMouser Skye

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    If I can help, let me know (duel vs. mob might be different). Because I know I am not crazy (I think), so I am glad someone else noticed as well. Real numbers would be great.
    [Greymouser] <-- still not sure where the '2' came from in the forums. I wish I could remove it.
     
  3. Noric

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    I'm not sure whether i would prefer it charge up to max and stay or do this, however either would be preferable to the current one for me.

    The one issue i see with the pendulum is the variable charge rate. A dagger would lose a high hit value faster than a polearm - and that could be considered a disadvantage.
     
  4. helm

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    Definitely YES, please!

    Imagine if, to harvest a node you'd need to hold down the mouse button for as long as the progress bar completes? Would sound crazy, huh?

    Well, that is somewhat analogous to our current free attack combat mechanics: there is nothing even remotely skill-related in constant holding down a button. All it does is cause repetitive strain (and numbness, and finally injury if you're prone to such things). So please implement this, thank you!

    By the way, Linux users have a quick and easy way to simulate / test this suggestion in practice, see spoiler (other platforms, apologies).
    Standard disclaimer: if these instructions ruin your marriage, kill your kitten, or burn down your house, or anything like that, I'm not responsible.

    That said, most Ubuntu installations work almost out of the box, so you'll be up and chargin' in no time. Probably there's an easy way to do a similar thing in Macs and Windows machines as well, but that's not my cup of tea. Sorry.

    These quite simple (and quick & dirty) instructions assume that you want to test out ONLY "passive charging", not glyph manipulation along with it, for instance. If you also want to test manipulating glyphs with your mouse while testing passive charging, see the note below.


    1. First, of course, you need to have your attack mode set to free attack (i.e. make sure the "Auto Attack" tick box is cleared in the game options)

    2. Install a mouse/keyboard event generator tool. You can easily install a tool called 'xdotool' from Ubuntu 'Universe' repository if you have it enabled, by just typing:
    Code:
    sudo apt-get install xdotool
    .
    The following assumes that you have xdotool installed, and that you have NOT set up a key binding for 'Attack' in the game settings (the default is no binding, so if you do not know what this binding means, you'll likely be fine).


    3. Start up SotA if you haven't already.

    4. Open a terminal, and type (or copy-paste from below):
    Code:
     sleep 5 ; while true ; do xdotool mousedown 1 ; sleep 1 ; done 

    5. Quickly bring up SotA and enjoy your "simulated" passive attack charging mode.

    6. Important...don't forget to close the script (just press CTRL-C in the terminal) when done (it generates a 1st button 'mousedown' event every second, so it might do funny things if left on...).


    __________________________
    NOTE: The instructions above do not permit you to manipulate glyphs (because the attack button is the first mouse button by default). To do that, you need to remap the 'Attack' binding to something (it's empty by default) in the game options.

    For example, you could set the 'Attack' binding to key 'f' (just change the "friends" binding to something else). Then modify the terminal command in part 4 above as follows (change the 'f' in "keydown f" to the key of your choice if necessary):
    Code:
     sleep 5 ; while true ; do xdotool keydown f ; sleep 1 ; done 

    Now you'll be able to modify the glyphs as well. Press the 'f' key to trigger the attack (or whatever key you chose), the 1st mouse button does not work for this any more if the 'Attack' has any keybinding (of course you can map that key to a mouse side or middle button for example)
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  5. helm

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    Not sure about this, especially if it fluctuates between 0 and max. That just does not feel quite right. However I wouldn't mind if it fluctuated between say 80% and 100% -- that could at least be somehow explained by not being able to hold out constant full tension or focus (or something like that :)).
     
  6. Smalls

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    Greymouser and I did some tests here are my results. I didn't post his using a pole arm as I am not sure his complete skill set. But they were no better.
    I have GM blades and 60 Dex. @Chris Tell me if this looks consistent with other players. Thanks! @Attenwood Move this one if you think it is a bug, not sure if it is that or just bad mechanics. Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
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  7. Noric

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    Attenwood is active right now in bug section - good time to report.
     
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  8. helm

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    Rereading this thread, I'm concerned that the core proposal is now being swamped by all kinds of additional suggestions.

    As a reminder, the core proposal is:

    Let free attack charge passively, without needing to hold down any button.

    Even in the OP, there are actually two separate proposals, and after thinking about the second one of them long hand hard - that is the autoattack related proposal - I can't really agree with involving autoattack with the free attack mode in any way. To be clear, I would not be vehemently against implementing such a thing as an option (assuming it could be done in a reliable way, without sacrificing any core usability or UI reliability), it's just that autoattack is a weaker attack by design - there might be bugs in the implementation that might make it appear stronger, but then they are nothing but bugs (@Chris has been quite clear about the relative strengths of these attack modes). Technically speaking, compared to simple relaxed tapping every now and then (presuming the passive charging was actually implemented), squeezing the attack button would result in considerably weaker attack. Now who on earth would want that?

    Remember the history: not that long ago, autoattack was well on its way to the backyard junk pile of development, but there was such an uproar that it was sorta-kinda kept as a more convenient, but weaker, option (even I did support saving it). I believe a great part of this uproar was the inconvenience, clumsiness and awkwardness of free/charged attack. And why is free/charged attack still so inconvenient, clumsy and awkward? Because of the "hold down a button to charge" UI design philosophy. It's nothing more than clumsy UI design. The limiting factor in determining the strength of the free attack should be time, and time only, not the physical endurance of your hand/arm muscles and tendons. Holding down a button adds nothing positive to the mix.

    Implementing passive charging removes all the clumsiness and awkwardness from free attack. It makes it actually fun to use. In fact I believe: had passive charging been already implemented when free/charged attack was introduced, not many would have been so eager to give the proposal to scrap the auto attack a second thought.

    Edit - a little elaboration
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
  9. DaemienX

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    Holy freaking yikes. That's really bad.
     
  10. DaemienX

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    The reason I want to have auto-attack "bound" to mouse click-hold is that sometimes you just need that last hit to finish a mob off, and mash-clicking to get fast attacks is a bit annoying. This will just let you fire off a few attacks with one action, as opposed to many.

    I'm one of the plebeians who uses Auto-attack still, but I do it because I like making haste builds that apply on-hit effects. Now, if haste increases charge speed, I'll change it up fast, but I haven't noticed a difference yet. I think that both attack methods should be left in so that players can take advantage of them in various builds. :D
     
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  11. KuBaTRiZeS

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    This is a must. I play a Ranger with a full random deck and free attack, I'm pretty handy with the keyboard so i have no troubles combining glyphs up to the point i exhaust them, using free attack while combining/waiting for glyphs to come up.

    What i'm trying to point out is that i just use the mouse to look around and use free attacks. Why i think of this as a must then? Because after fighting for a while i end up fighting while keeping the LMB pushed. That way i'm always charging, using glyphs when i have enough and releasing LMB when i think a free attack is in order.

    The only difference between current implementation and this proposal is having a button continuously pressed.
     
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  12. helm

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    Just for the record, I'm not against having auto attack as an option. I think it's especially important for smoothing up the learning curve for beginners. I'm just a bit concerned about extra complexity (it might not be a big issue in this case, depending on how it's implemented), and that the excellent core idea might not get all the attention it deserves.
     
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  13. helm

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    Well put. This is precisely what I've been trying to say, and my story as an archer is pretty similar to yours.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
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  14. DaemienX

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    I think the charged attacks are a neat idea, just for me they feel... out of place? I strongly associate RPG's with auto-attacking, and the manual attacks make me want to play the game like an action RPG. Unfortunately, there isn't a manual shield button, and the dodge is less than exciting. It's like it's almost there, but just feels disjointed.

    Definitely like that they are trying different things though, won't fault them for that!
     
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  15. KuBaTRiZeS

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    If you're talking about double tapping the direction keys... that's a great eufemism for useless :D Now seriously, some things are buggy but others are simply placeholders, i expect basic dodge to do something.

    Exactly :D lots of things are tested and we'll see what we keep in the end... I expect to land somewhere near ARPGs but with a more turn based feeling (strategic instead of twitchy, if that makes any sense). Those are just my expectations, though.
     
  16. DaemienX

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    I would actually love it if they went full ARPG. I feel like hotbar combat is a relic of the days of bad network connections and limited hardware. We are at the point now where we can manage real-time hit detection and positional combat, so why not take advantage of it? it makes for a way more immersive experience (in my opinion).
     
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  17. KuBaTRiZeS

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    I hear you, but my preferences go elsewhere. I think the strategy that can be brought in with the random deck and combos is worth the hotbar. I do want target combat to go away, though, so we rely more on our aim and and less in tab targeting.

    I'm also quite hyped for the potential of everything new, so i usually tend to dismiss the options that looks classic. Nothing against it, i'm just a dreamer :D
     
  18. Crazy Phil

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    For this part of @DaemienX 's proposal, everyone should play a little Dungeons & Dragons Online. It's free to play. Just play the starting scene. This is how DDO works.

    While you're playing... imagine that you have a Free Attack Charge Bar that charges to full while you are not pressing or holding down Left Mouse Button.

    That's it. It would be DDO with a charge bar and glyph shuffling, and that would be glorious in my opinion.
     
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  19. Weins201

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    So you want it so you don't have to do anything to charge the attack just wait until it if fully charged and then fire it off?

    No, that is why it is a charged attack it takes player interaction to charge it up.

    Sorry but this is a HUGE play the game not game the game.
     
  20. Noric

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    Mostly playing devil's advocate here, but it is not really any concern of the devs what the core proposal is. The devs take feedback and parse it for current problems and potentially some brainstorming towards fixing things. Just because we may find the core proposal to be the most important thing in this thread(and i do agree on this), doesn't mean that will be the case for a dev. Each version of the system that people are talking about is actually some form of feedback. Which feedback will be of most use to a developer is not ours to decide.
     
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