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Make charging passive in free attack mode

Discussion in 'Release 28 Feedback Forum' started by DaemienX, Apr 11, 2016.

  1. Noric

    Noric Avatar

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    You could just use a system based on 2 clicks (start and release) if player interaction is such an important thing. The click press system is just ergonomically wasteful for something that a player is doing over and over again.
     
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  2. Weins201

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    It is not wasteful it is how you get the charge attack to hit harder, Charging (the act of holding down a button to charge) = a more powerful attack. You all want it to just charge up on its own.

    NO
    pew, PEW, phew
     
  3. Noric

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    You didn't read the post you just responded to. There is no "skill" inherent to timing a held button press that isn't present in timing 2 separate button presses. The only difference is physical strain.
     
  4. Weins201

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    Never said it take "skill" said it takes action. Play the game, stop trying to make the game play itself.

    I have made my opinion known arguing it is pointless.

    You all have made your opinions know also, not really much of a debate.

    Peace out.
     
  5. DaemienX

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    So holding a button down is player interaction to you? The whole strategy of free attacks is knowing when to actually use the attack, not the inherent action of charging. Holding down the mouse button doesn't require more skill or strategy, it's just a repetitive stress injury waiting to happen. The player still has to interact to attack (clicking the mouse button vs. releasing it).
    Id rather free up the player to interact in more meaningful ways.
     
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  6. Weins201

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    :rolleyes::eek: To the simple idea of a one button start charge - sure but when it hits max it is gone if you did no fire it off :oops: o_O
     
  7. uziraff

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    That would work. I would say give it a 1 to 3 second pause when maxed out before reseting again.

    It really does not make sense that I can run around forever with a charged attack ready.
     
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  8. helm

    helm Avatar

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    Charged attack takes time to charge it up. That is the general idea; you exchange time to a more powerful attack.

    Holding down a mouse button is not "user interaction". It is just that - holding down a mouse button. Chronic tension without any thought or plan.

    That's exactly the point. When playing the game, I would much rather fight the mobs than fight the user interface.

    There is a difference between an opinion and a reasoned judgement. The latter can be debated (is actually intended to be debated), the former can not.
     
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  9. helm

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    It has been said many times before in this thread, that the proposal would not change anything except chronic, mindless holding down the mouse button. Please read for example what @KuBaTRiZeS has written about it earlier in this thread.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2016
  10. Daxxe Diggler

    Daxxe Diggler Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    I'm all for this idea. The main reason I use auto attack instead of charged attack is because my fingers go numb and my wrist hurts after running around holding the mouse button down all the time.

    I love the idea of having an option to attack manually where I can have those attacks stronger if I wait longer... but the way it currently works is just too painful for me to do it.

    Besides the numbness and pain problem, this method also creates issues for stacking other skills in your deck (because you can't click/drag them while holding down the mouse button to charge.) Sure, you can learn to use the keyboard to work around that, but the charge attack method currently being used makes it impossible to drag/stack. I like to drag/stack as it's faster than finding and hitting 3 separate keys on the keyboard.

    So the way it is now, has 2 large disadvantages over auto attack.

    Weins, I disagree with you about the "interaction" issue you are worried about with this proposal. The charged attack is meant to be a way to be selective in your attacks and if you need a low damage hit (or a couple smaller ones in a row) you can just let it go sooner... or you can wait longer for it to charge up to hit harder. That's the intention of the free attack. It's not intended to make you hold down a button to simulate a charge! You are not getting bigger hits as a result of holding the button down longer. You are getting bigger hits due to waiting for the charge to grow to max strength and then firing it off. It's simply a tradeoff of manually choosing hard or soft attacks selectively vs. an average hitting auto attack that you don't have to do ANYTHING to get except double-clicking the mob at the start of a fight.

    DEV's, please consider this and I guarantee there will be a lot more interest in the charged free attack. As it is now, many of us don't use it simply because of the pain it causes us... not the concept of how it works.

    At the very least, free attack should be changed to a click-to-start-charge / click again to hit (where if you drag glyphs in between to stack it doesn't interfere with the charge).
     
  11. helm

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    Both this and "straight" passive charging would make it actually feasible to remap the 'Attack' trigger to a keyboard key.
    I have tested it with the 'f' key and it works pretty well if used only for releasing the attack.
    Just mentioning this because this is an easy way to make absolutely sure glyph manipulation does not interfere with the charge.
     
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  12. Mystic

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    Had to clean some posts out. Please be respectful of each others opinions here.
     
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  13. Gix

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    What about people who don't want to charge attacks and want to just.... attack? Double-click? No thanks.

    You're charging an attack, why should you be able to manage glyphs at the same time? I'm not saying you can't, but you want to streamline the process... Again, no thanks.
     
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  14. Noric

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    Any time not spent charging an attack is reduced DPS. Any time spent managing glyphs is time not spent charging an attack. I don't see why people that are supposedly using the "harder" mode of gameplay should be penalized for interacting with the rest of the combat system.
     
  15. uziraff

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    I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure I have had no problems stacking glyphs using the keyboard at the same time as charging an attack.

    I would say let the bar charge, and once full reset after a couple seconds if not used. (Thus only one click per attack)
    This would allow someone who can't use a keyboard at the same time to stack glyphs to still stack glyphs.
     
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  16. helm

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    I assume you refer to using the auto attack instead of charged attack? You would just enable it as the default attack mode in the game options as usual.

    Manipulating glyphs while charging an attack is quite possible already. I do it all the time, with both mouse and keyboard.
    In practice doing it with the mouse (glyph weaving) requires an expensive gaming mouse with mappable side buttons. The proposal would bring this functionality easily accessible for everyone.
    The following assumes that you use a keyboard and a gaming mouse, and use the WASD keys for moving (regardless of whether you use mouselook or not).

    The thing is, holding down any key constantly while using the WASD keys at the same time is practically impossible: most of us have only five fingers. Therefore you need to have to charging button somewhere in your mouse.

    Manipulating glyphs using mouse: You need to "free" your mouse 1st button (the right button for right-handed folks) to do it. Right now there are not many practical options: you need to have a gaming mouse that has side buttons that you can squeeze while moving the mouse around. Map 'Attack' in the Game options to some less used key (can also be a combination key, doesn't matter) and map that key to your mouse side button. Now you can charge by squeezing the side button, and manipulate (weave) glyphs using the 1st button.

    Manipulating glyphs using keyboard: There are as many ways to do this as there are players. A few notes that I've found useful:

    • Try to remap your glyphs in game controls so that the keys are as close to the WASD keys as possible, so your fingers do not need to leave their location. The keys Z, X, C, V, F, R, 1, 2, 3 might be the best candidates, B, G, 4 are also reachable (the existing mappings need to be moved somewhere else).
    • You can leave the 'Attack' mapping as is if you want, though it might still be more convenient ergonomically if you remapped it to a mouse side button (see above).
    • It might be a good idea to remap the 'Start combining glyphs' functionality (key 'R' by default) to your mouse (a side button or for example the middle button). This would also free up one key near the WASD keys, so your finger do not need to move around so much.
    • If you have a mouse with enough side buttons, it might also be worth considering to map the 'CTRL' key to some side button. This provides an easy way to discard glyphs without twisting your hand to awkward CTRL-key combination contortions.

    Edit - fixed incomplete sentence in last paragraph
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
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  17. Noric

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    Just an alternative thing he could be talking about - supposedly manually attacking even without charging has higher dps than autoattacking.
     
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  18. Gix

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    Wow! the replies I got were assuming a lot of things about me.

    The "harder" mode is mainly a balance issue, not a control issue. So I don't care what the data suggests that I should do. If they suddenly patched the game to make charged attacks useless would you be signing a different tune? What if they made the game where you could interrupt casters/abilities by quick attacks? How people should be playing the game should NOT be influenced by numbers or how the game is balanced... no... my argument is the control scheme and it alone. Again: not the "why" but the "how".

    If I have a sword out, I expect to be able to swing my weapon by clicking the mouse button. It's what we call having intuitive design.

    For all your number-crunchers out there: If all you need is to hit your enemy with a basic attack to do a final killing blow, charging your weapon would be wasting your time.

    You assumed wrong. I use a combination of charged attacks and quick attacks. If it were up to me, I'd actually remove auto-attack altogether. It stunts progression of a decent combat system when it has to work with a very archaic (and "WoW like") combat system.

    I do it all the time with a basic 2 button mouse and a keyboard. I never promoted nor condemned the act of managing glyphs but I am against changing basic control schemes just for the sake of stream-lining something that I'm very neutral towards.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
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  19. helm

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    Sorry Gix I accidentally left my sentence incomplete, fixed it ten minutes after but you beat me to it (fixed now in the original) :) I meant to say that manipulating glyphs using mouse (glyph weaving) is in practice almost impossible, ergonomically speaking, without gaming mouse side buttons, ones that you can squeeze while moving the mouse. I added a spoiler to the original message that elaborates this. Charging while manipulating glyphs with the keyboard is certainly possible with any mouse, though again the gaming mouse brings certain added possibilities (again see spoiler).

    Edit - I don't personally see the motivation for this change to be "just for the sake of" stream-lining something. It is actually a rather serious ergonomic issue to some people, and possibly also quite a big hindrance to the adoption of the charged attack (for example see @Daxxe Diggler's post above)., or how KuBaTRiZeS put it earlier:
    @Gix, or @Noric, what I would like to understand better, is how are "quick attacks" special? Are charged attacks slower to release? To my earlier/current understanding quick attacks are just attacks with some initial charging value, before that value starts to climb up, and "auto attacks" are just automated 1/s quick attacks with slightly reduced DPS - is this understanding incorrect?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2016
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  20. Honador

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    How where you attacking while NOT in auto attack?