My thoughts on Looting

My sincere opinion about the system proposed in the OP is that it's too complicated and, the way it was described, with too little player control over what he is risking. Also, some elements might look good on paper but create strange situations; if the looting limit is per unit of time, and the player is looted soon after entering the PvP area, does this mean that for the rest of the time period he can't be looted? Does this mean that he could arrange to be killed and looted by a friends so as to become immune to looting?

That being said, having looting limits be time-based is an interesting idea. I just don't think it being a hard limit is advisable.

Overall I would try for something simpler, and preferably symmetric, where players on both sides of a conflict stand to lose the same amount.

Caveat: that is not a system I would play with anyway because, if I can be looted in any shape or way, I'm simply not playing.

 

yeah thats the reason i told selective multiplayer have to be smth you can select your playstile if they want to get as much players as possible

for pvp flagged open world pvp with loot
for pve guys instances without pvp
and for people who want pvp without looting ( arena minigame , maybe capture the flag minigame ,or duels for gold in town where you cant get looted or the good old 20 min server down mechanics that the last 20 min wont get saved and you can use your best armor and pets and can cause a pvp massaker at the graveyard)

 

Well thank you for actually providing feedback.. (it only took until page 3 folks!).

The background mechanics may be complicated but for the player it's not. You PvP a lot you are lootable. You PvP rarely you may not be. You total value of loot that can be taken depends on how much PvP you do.

For you personally you probably won't ever PvP regardless as they are intent right now on allowing looting with ransom. Having to pay ransom is still a form of looting.

As to having to control. Honestly that seems a little odd. How much control does a corpse have? But there are built in controls. You don't want to be looted then don't constantly PvP. Every so often you won't be risking much. You're basically in control by how often you put yourself at risk.

Having your friends kill and loot you would be pointless.. since you'd constantly have to have your friends kill and loot you. Meaning suffering death penalties several times a day and constantly keeping track of the time. The point of putting a timer on the total value that can be looted is so you can't be constantly stripped bare over the course of say.. 30 minutes or an hour. But if it's not useful then don't put it in.

Like any system it's a matter of balance.

 

i personally would like if you hit someone first ko , can loot 1-2 items and he will stand up after 30 seconds .

or you decide to kill him to take all but you get punished with a murdercount (in uo red players was harly punished with stats lost)

 

Well, yeah, the complexity can be hidden from the player. This does have one downside, though; it becomes harder for the player to predict how much he is risking. I don't suppose this will be a deal breaker for many, but I do think it creates an avoidable source of frustration.

Complex systems also tend to be more fragile, easier to break or exploit. This is why I tend to suggest simple systems whenever possible.

It's not about the player that has already been killed having control, but about the player being able to choose how exposed to looting he will be before he engages in PvP, perhaps even before he enters the map where he will fight. I believe different players have different tolerances for how punishing PvP defeat should be, and thus that without some way to engage in PvP while choosing the amount of risk the player is willing to take a fair number of players that might otherwise try the PvP will, instead, just permanently opt out.

In control by limiting how much he plays. Not a mechanism that I consider enjoyable.

A bit off-topic, but if the average player does not suffer multiple deaths per day, then I will likely consider this game boringly easy. It's my big issue with heavy death penalties; I like games where I can never be sure if my character will survive the next encounter, but having harsh death penalties means that the game has to be tuned so the players suffer said penalties only rarely, which typically means making it so easy I could snooze through it.

Besides, on average the player should be killed about once every two PvP fights he takes part in. If the average player can expect to wade into PvP and not be killed within 30 minutes to an hour, this means the number of PvP engagements will be quite small.

 

If player's understand the basic principle then they would know "I don't PvP much or hardly at all so I'm not risking much if anything". It's not how much they play.. I never said that. It's how much they actually PvP. Besides, the more predictable it is the more people will try to game the system.

Death (PvP or otherwise) should be at least harsh enough that people don't want to abuse it such as by having their buddies kill them for whatever reason.

Now no offense intended here but is there ANY loot system that you would like? Since you've started you would avoid PvP entirely if there were any chance you could be looted.. I can only assume there's no way that anything short of 'no loot ever' would make you happy.

Clearly there's going to be a loot system be it with ransom or what have you.

 

"If you can afford it dont fly it" - EVE

Same went with UO.

It depends on the system - Modern MMOs use gear as a gateway.

If you have gear that breaks, is crafted, mixture of drops then losing your stuff isnt like losing years of playing. You keep your shiny awesome stuff got a good group of guys in a safe area to do hard content.

I dont understand why people get so uptight about open loot. Please help me understand. Saying if I can be looted I wont play seems extremely non productive and frankly a bit dickish.

 

I wouldn't go quite that far. UO isn't a great example. Whenever I was out and about and saw someone die that didn't have friends with them.. it was like a swarm of looters would descend and pick someone clean in seconds.. every time.

Bad experiences can turn anyone off as can general principle. Body part trophies and cannibalism is where I draw the line personally. If it literally can't be avoided if you PvP then I'd rather not PvP. If someone feels that way about loot there's no point in getting on their case about it. Just can't make everyone happy. But if a feature MUST go in it is still worth pursuing the best possible system for it.

 

heads trophys not reward you in a way you want

i still think

pvp minigame like duels and minigames like "arena" or "capture the flag" with no lag, in small instances, without loot is the best way and enough for players, who want to try out pvp and learn it before risking there stuff in open world pvp. special armor parts could be found in dungeons after a raid which could be used for it (but which are so rare and expencive that you would never ever use them in open world pvp) same with rare alloys you can get out of ore also tokkens alla age of conan could be a reward for the pvp minigames only (with them you can buy some armor sets for arena only)

and open world loot pvp for the rest of the world (beside minigames) if you are pvp flagged , where we use" metal armors" and armors out of" animal materials" which are cheep and easy to get hopefully , so you wont cry if you loose them and add pvp spots of interest like the woodcutter and ore camps i recommended some posts ago
so ultima online players get attention to the game

in mortal online you could kill 2 razorbacks (big pigs) butcher them and use there bones (ironbone) , as a main material + a side material like ironsilk from spiders or guard fur from bears (2 bears you had to kill) to craft an ironbone(guardfur) armor which was only 10 percent less defencive then steel but lighter . most pvper was using this kind of armors, with a steel helmet and torso to keep gear cheep,

10 percent was a good value . 10 percent less dmg can make the difference in pvp but it is much more expencive

a whole set of ironbone armor was cheeper then 1 part of steel

the 20 percent more defencive armors like cronite would already require 3 weeks of every day farming to get them (very rare and expencive)

and oghnium much more time

http://www.mortaldata.com/calculators/armor-calculator/

here is a calculator of armors you could build very impressive , you could build armors out of everything (even human bones or robes out of human skin) XD

and had to test a lot arround and mix parts and use different materials to bring your armor to the excact weight you want (it was really a profession it required testing and was fun ( for main material and secondary materials there was a slider, how much you want to use of the materials)


all over 10 kg give much fall dmg
all over 10 kg made you unable to swim if you had no skill for it
all over 4 weight reduced mana regeneration



so a hybrif had to use the lightest shore power or lizzard scales


i personally like crafting and testing (non loot pvp would ruin it for me totally) 2 features i loved in uo and made me play it, housevendor and crafting and for sure pvp and pve (but sadly crafting was a bit boring in ultima you didnt had to test much) a combination of base and side material and a slider can make a difference so much more combinations are possible beside choosing the right material

 

Doesn't it sound incredibly borring that everyone would be using the same gear? That to me is a check that the system is flawed.

It's not being "censored" as the other poster said about people not wanting to play PVP it's full loot, it's preferance and their choice...that would be like saying the other side who said they won't play if it isn't full loot is the same way.

 

Inurance system!!! all the rest is lootable no immersion killing pvp instances!!!
This is not a request its an Order!

 

The point hes making is when you are out adventuring you wouldnt be wearing your shiniest shinies unless you are in a big group.

Whilst adventuring you would be using mundane equipment unless in a posse.

Im gonna play the game regardless so null point, I am just hoping for some more danger than just going to a ress point and the joy of oppurtune attacks.

I really think EVE covers the non consensual PvP really well, the danger is always there, just mitigated some what.

If you loose your easily crafted armor and weapons its no big deal. This creates an economy too, instead of just hoarding items that make you stronger. Surely this game is going to be skill based anyway

 

by having somehow similar gear with fair balanced values is one thing that make fair pvp possible

thats why i disliked age of conan a bit (some people had super rare op gear from raids) when you killed them they still was op because of no loot on the other hand it made people make the raids and the pve was nice in the game

so we need both a bit gear depending fights in arenas where you not loose your stuff, and fair balanced open world pvp


and in mortal not everyone was wearing the same gear

there was limited skillpoints , to wear a havy armor you needed havy armor training , depending on how much skill points you had left to spend in this skill
the havyer your armor could be , i preferd having swimming so i coudnt use that havy armor and had only 67 skillpoints to be able to swim with 22 weight

a mage required compleatly different materials and a hybrid aswell
these chartacters needed scales , and the right ones there was horned plate and keeledscales. a material with the best protection at lowest weight , a fighter could use ironbone a little better protection and cheeper because he not care mana panalty (and even he could decide between havy and super havy armor depending if he wanted to swim ot if he is a mounted archer)

several people had different preferences because the game had hitboxes, someone prefer to have a havy steel torso out of this armor type ,the other one rather prefer steel boots and helmet because he have a shield with a hitbox so his boots and head is his weak spot if noone run behind him.
depending on where you are living people crafted materials out of different materials (those which was avalible near the town or place you live) you could use a lighter " base material" for an armor but use a havyer armor type to balance it out. so instead of expilator armor you could craft a direptor part


u see everyone was using different materials but most of them was easy to get

 

meh so you make your vanq weapon unlootable and you are still op after dying ??? woudnt like that at all , especially the aspect of farming dungeons would miss to find vanq weapons and sell them or horde them in your house, to use them in pvp later

maybe the true harcore pvpers are a bit less then pve guys but what i like is especially that point that everyone know each other after time

look this excemple a murderer of innocent people ingame (ford rob from guts) riped in real life and the community of the game stick together to get him a proper furneral

http://www.gofundme.com/cjgu1g

maybe it have also smth to do because its a time consuming game aswell and most subbed players were online for minimum 5 h a day and some played from morting till evening XD

or in path of excile ( i know no mmo) but its the same the hardcore players were less in population
because causual players not want to loose all there gear when they rip in a diablo like game where it is much much more afford to get good gear then in an mmo.

these was the guys streaming and everyone loved to watch, because they know maybe they die and loose everything .

look kripperian or athene who even got several million dollars together for poor kids in africa because people like to watch his steams because he played unforgiving hardcore . when you get streamers and true pvper or hardcore players loving the game it get more populat im pretty sure of it. pvpers know other pvpers and tell them aswell

 

I like the idea but that would also mean that the largest gank groups gets all the stuff

 

true thats life , you need to go in town regear and come back for a revange

but there are more important things they need to do first tab targeting and too much magery is not good with full loot atm !!!
somehow it need to be skillbased that a small group can win vs a big group if they know the terrain well , and if they can prevent dmg from magery by walking behind a bush to not get in target and mellee combat need to be made nice

see here



small group defend lot of enemys because they know the terrain well go back at the right mopment to a spot they cant get focused by all the enemys always , this make pvp fights much longer and more fun (i like when you get a lot of dmg pretty fast but the ability to heal up with pots and bandages fast aswell) ultima style not like wow 100000 hp and you need to hit him a half hour. in ultima a explo ebold delt pretty much dmg but small in manis could keep u alive with pots

or once we won because we kited a much larger group to a bridge where a mage was casting earthquake under the bridge on our command . they got tons of dmg at once and we could strike back with a much smaller group


have seen several large fights where a small smart group could win vs a bigger one with proper communication about focusing and use of terrain , for excemple mages are squishy so you have to find a stone or rock where you command your mage group to regroup there , so fighters have to put down there weapon to jump on the rock and your mates can more easy defend the mages and low hp players can go back towards the mages because they are all on 1 spot. there was really tactics involved in this game because of open world pvp , that might force people to have to join a guild but what is bad on that ?? they they are there for each other and help
what i also liked that there was no map, every rock had his name like mount clinton and broken water or bandit bridge , vadda backdrop prist and more so people had to remember the names to send reinforcements to a special location thats a reason i think these hexes should be a bit larger some km or whatever that you wont account a loading screen after 20 seconds of walking

 

I believe it is difficult to say that a system is flawed unless we have seen it in operation.

On paper, it does not appear to be flawed. Here is why: In the ransom system, the player is still giving up loot in either case. Gold is loot. The PVP winner and loser are still winning and losing something. See this as something that allows a balance between those who want to loot more and those who want to spend more time in PVP without downtime. PrimeRib had it right. We must understand what game systems we are talking about and the cause and effect of the implementation of that system. There is an effect on PVP for increasing looting of items. It cause some PVP players to have significantly more downtime out of PVP, which is counter to having a PVP system. Instead, we end up with a looting system that benefits crafters because it makes PVP losers need to go find replacement gear if they lose too much. Nothing wrong with that. But understand the impact of one system on the other. Being able to ransom an item with gold is the best of both worlds - it gives the PVP winner loot, while minimizing the PVP downtime for the PVP loser.

In that regard, the ransom system may seem broken to crafters and looters who want more loot and better looting systems so that there is a better market for crafting. It does not seem broken at all to those who want to avoid PVP downtime and maximize their time in player combat.

 

There are other ways to stimulate crafting though...weapon wear down etc...

 

Which is an issue for me. Like I said, if death stings so much that players avoid it at all costs, the devs will be basically forced to tune down the difficulty so the common player rarely dies.

Which would mean that an actually good player will go for long stretches of time without dying, and IMHO if he is not in risk of dying, then he is not being challenged in earnest. I find that really boring. My ideal game is one that will kill me every few minutes, despite myself playing to the best of my ability, but this is nowadays as rare as a hen's teeth.

Yeah. Psychological block. I would be okay(ish) with full loot destruction on death, as long as whoever defeated me couldn't actually get anything from my character's corpse, but as soon as the winner can loot anything from the corpse of the loser I'm not playing.

Actually, that is what I prefer in PvP. I tend to play PvP mostly when there is little to no performance difference between characters, to the point I tend to quickly abandon any PvP game where winning in PvP (or even merely grinding) grants any statistical advantage in further matches.

I like PvP to be on an even field, for player skill (including the skill in creating the skill and gear build) to be the only deciding factor in who wins, but without any need to grind. The moment grinding gives a player any advantage in PvP, I tend to go look for less grindy pastures.

What this would do for me is that I would only own mundane equipment.

If high end gear can be lost then the game needs to be tuned so everything can be done in mundane equipment. In which case, what is the reason to even use high end gear? Why even risk it if I can just slap a set of cheap gear and, by just paying attention and avoiding mistakes, get anything that a player in the higher end gear can get?

I'm the kind of player that typically goes through games without using any item or piece of gear that has limited uses, be it a limited special attack, temporary boosts, whatever. If the game can be beaten without using those, I will beat it without using those. The same will happen here regarding anything that can be lost and is not easily and readily replaceable.

In other words, if gear can be lost, I will treat the game as if high end gear does not even exist. This would be triggered by the existence of PvE player looting or unavoidable decay, BTW.

 

That would be true of every human conflict over the last 100,000 years or so.