No, there are no PKs in SotA. Or is there?

As Ultima Online's "Spiritual Successor," SotA has adopted much of the terminology that UO had. At least much of the lingo that the majority of the community is using. This much is obvious, including the term PK (Player Killer). No need in reading further if you strictly define the word player killer and do not wish to acknowledge where the term PK stems from. Before I explain why there are no PKs in SotA, let us glance at what a PK was in UO.

In UO, a PK was a murder. To become a murderer, your avatar must have killed innocent players. In Shroud of the Avatar, you only have the choice of killing just players flagged PvP. This makes all the difference.

UO - Player kills an innocent <!=> SotA - Player kills another PvP flagged player

In other words, these two systems cannot be compared. On the surface, the SotA PvP system does not discriminate between innocent, murderers, or criminals. You are simply PvP. Furthermore, you are engaging in an agreement to die at the will of other players. If another player attacks you, they are not attacking an innocent, murderer or a criminal, but a person that is consensually flagged PvP; nothing else.

If you are flagged for Open PvP and kill someone flagged PvP, you are not a PK. You are just a PvP'er. Players that flag PvP, or enter an Open PvP are, know what they signed up for. In no way does flagging PvP determine alignment.

The closest you get to an innocent kill is finding the random non-PvP oriented player scurrying through open-PvP areas; most likely with little to no equipment while exploring. Especially those you find along the quest lines that don't take alternate routes. Maybe the new player that doesn't fully understand the PvP system looking for that small 10% XP boost.

There my fellow avatars is the reason why we should stop referring to players as PKs in SotA. They are simply PvP. Or a PvPer.

"There are three types of people in this world: the sheep who go about their business, the wolf who feeds on the sheep, and the sheepdog who protects the flock." And, we ain't got no sheep to feed on, so we have no wolf, and most certainly no sheepdog to keep the wolf inline.

Now if you are in to RP, there is plenty of room to interpret a player being a murder, an innocent or criminal. That's not the argument. SotA just does not mechanically provide circumstances for a player to fall into any particular alignment within the PvP arena.

If a player kills on sight (KOS), and doesn't follow any type of rules of engagement, could this make a player a PK? No, it simply makes them dishonorable.

We could redefine the term PK in SotA, but then it would mean redefining what PK meant in UO.

As a side note, there is much to be said about non-flagged players being able to attack and steal from a player flagged for Open PvP. At least 80% of my open world PvP interaction has come from non-flagged PvP players. All of which pounced on me while I was low health or AFK. Right after, they run straight to the oracle to restore the oracles protection. IMO, these people are just griefers. The crazy thing is that it's by design. This most definitely deters players from flagging PvP.

I know I'll get some backlash, but I have been wanting to have this conversation. Btw, I've been loving the core mechanics of the combat system. It's better than ever!

 

Classically the PK never looked for PvP, it was never about fair fights it was more about opportunity and actually making money.

I would say that if a player turns up out of nowhere while your half health, not over geared and then proceeds to kill you.......then I would deem them a PK. Likewise if someone kills you at a rez site....I would deem them a PK.

 

I agree with the first part. But, with the second part, you say that the term PK has been redefined?

 

Not really, for the majority of UO lifespan PvP has been consensual in the same way SotA is (when tram was created.....to run around in fel was consenting to pvp). Technically you could only PK in fel (unless you did what I did in the past and use disguise kits to join guilds to kill the members in tram).

PKs will always exist in open world PvP.......most people on SotA tend to just refer to them as griefers..........which is a shame on many levels.

 

It could also be said that the original PK died when Trammel was released. Many players stopped playing OSI servers while switching to grey servers for that very reason. Especially PKs. On many OSI servers, the killing terrain was barren compared to the good glory days without trammel. So, comparing post-trammel could be null. Grey servers cropped up everywhere without trammel along with an exodus of OSI players that wouldn't have UO any other way.

As for what I referred to as griefing in SotA, if you attack or steal from a player flagged PvP and you are not, is that not a shame? Or are you referring to other actions?

 

I don't think you can say that PKing doesn't exist just because PvP is consensual. Yes there is a justice system missing (back in UO red/blue/grey etc) which I really hope is addressed.

But as I said, PKing is all about the low hanging fruit and taking advantages of opportunities that might arise. It's not necessarily about looking for true PvP action (in fact most of the time it was all about avoiding it). As PvP is consensual, it just means that the low hanging fruit is just a little bit higher and any opportunity that may arise might be a little trickier.

 

One thing to consider is that the landscape of MMOs has also changed. When I played UO back in 1998, and there was no Trammel, it was thrilling to me to get chased by a PK if it was a fight I wasn't prepared to win. It forced me to learn the game better and excel just so I could defend myself. I'd carry supplies that would help me defend myself just in-case something happened. I eventually got into some PKing of my own, and was heavy into PvP, but it didn't happen overnight. It took a couple years and some top rung PKs to take me under their wings and accept me into their ranks.

When UO came out, there wasn't much like it. There was EQ in 1999, which I didn't play, but for at least a 1 year span, nothing rivaled UO. Players literally had no other games they could go play if they didn't like the threat of being murdered on a whim. I mean, you have to consider that being PK'd is akin to skill loss; many players simply can't afford to have their gear stolen. In UO, good players didn't suffer skill loss, but everything they were carrying could be looted. That could erase hours of grinding for loot just because a PK catches you with your pants down. What kept people from leaving the game in droves back then, in my mind, was that there was no place else to go. So, players got resourceful - were forced to adapt - and would band into large guilds. The PK system actually compelled the community to work together so that they could overcome PKs by sheer numbers. This is essentially why communities were formed in real life to begin with.

I don't see that happening in today's MMO landscape. There are literally thousands of other MMOs people can and will go play if they feel harassed in this game, or that it's simply too hard to progress. The industry has spoiled gamers. The vast amount of choice has splintered the MMO gaming community, and coddled them far too much for far too long.

One other point that is different is that the world of UO was a truly open world. You didn't have tiny little zones into which you teleport after sitting through long loading screens. In UO, we had the ability to kind of skirt around an area to see if anyone is there before we dove head first into it. In SotA we are forced to enter the zone before we know if anyone is there that might want to kill us. Thus, it is much harder to avoid the fight.

In UO, the red/gray names would pop up on the screen immediately, and you'd know if a PK was in the general area with enough time that you could reverse course and get away. In SotA, you have to be almost on top of them to see their red name plate, and you don't even know that they intend you harm just because their name is red.


For those of us who enjoy the challenge and employing our perseverance, PKing sounds like a welcome addition. To everyone else, it just sounds like one more hassle that they don't want to deal with in their relaxing off time from work. And that's exactly why we have the opt-in PVP system. Of course, you can run around with the PVP flag on constantly - no one is stopping you. You have probably drawn the same conclusion as me though: that the threat of PK isn't as fun if everyone doesn't face the same threat.

 

@E n v y: I am with you on a justice or alignment system. Even more incentive to PvP; even it's basically color coding names based on given stats.

If it has nothing to do with innocent players being murdered or little to do with PvP, then it seems like the term PK has been redefined. We now hinge being a PK as following dishonorable rules of engagement?

And, if a PK is defined as player that follows dishonorable rules of engagement, the lowest hanging fruit is found by not flagging PvP and being able to enjoy the benefits of being flagged PvP; not so consensual. It is not so tricky when non-flagged players can attack an Open PvP flagged player whenever they want. They basically get the fruit handed to them considering we are not in an Open PvP world.

 

Pre release anyone could jump someone PvP flagged, it would flag them PvP as they did it but they could get the jump , no idea why it was removed seemed a much more interesting system. Likewise healing someone PvP flagged in your group flagged you.

 

There are no dishonorable rules of engagement. There are no rules of engagement at all. But the Statement Highlights the missconception a lot of people have about pvp (imo). If you want a top, clean fight go to a Arena.

 

@Anvar: That is still the case.

@Earl Atogrim von Draken: Not a statement, but a question. What is the misconception that players have about PvP?

 

The term "player killer" didn't specifically mean "murderer." You can role-play a cutthroat, a bandit, or an other unsavory person who murders other characters. "Player killer" as a term specifically came about to describe the fact that PKers were targeting players, rather than characters; hence the "player" in "player killer". So it was more of a characterization that there was a lack of role-playing involved and instead he person was griefing other players for sport.

I'm totally agnostic about whether people use the term "PKer", but PvP in SotA is pretty much the same as in UO except with flagging, and griefing-type behavior is still possible. For instance, I'm pretty sure that killing someone AFK near a crafting station would still be considered griefing by most people. The person who is AFK has his character "out of the game" at that moment by most standards, and the person who is targeting him is taking advantage of that to hurt the player.

But my opinion was always that even in UO, griefing was only made permissible by the fact that the game didn't really provide adequate consequences for that type of behavior, so I'm less interested in scolding people who act like griefers and more interested in getting the devs to realize this was the problem in UO and is still the problem in SotA and to try to overcome that with justice mechanics.

 

There are PK's and I love them all! Like Envy mentioned, many think of them as griefers but I do not classify them as such. I'm actually a little envious of them because they get to do what they love, Kill! My admiration comes from my want of flesh and since cannibalism is not yet in the game, I live through their victory. I do not PK and never would (well unless I could eat them) but I understand their need.

 

And there are people who wonder why i consider humans nuts by default.

 

@redfish: If you played Ultima Online. A PK was a player that killed innocent players. To be a PK, it meant you were red. Red meant you killed innocent player. Key word, innocent. To say otherwise, would be denying what a PK actually was and failing to acknowledge where the terminology stemmed from.

But, like I said:

An RP interpretation of a PK is whole different facet from what this conversation is about.

Have you experienced PvP in SotA? Do you play Shroud of he Avatar? It is nothing like UO. The entire system is completely different. Comparing the combat system in SotA to UO is like comparing apples to oranges. Currently, there are no sheep to send to the slaughter.

 

@Bambino

I disagree.. and yes, I played UO, SotA, and PvP in SotA...

If you played a highwayman in UO, blocked a road, and said to the other player -- you have three options: turn back, pay a toll to pass, or try to pass without a toll and we'll kill you... and the player tried to pass without paying a toll and you killed them, that isn't the definition of PKing, despite the fact that the other player is by all standards "innocent."

The biggest difference between PvP in UO and SotA is that in SotA you have to flag or go to PvP zones. You can still grief people, though.

 

@Dinsoo: How do you define PK? I assume much different from what a PK was back in the UO days?

I haven't seen one innocent player to kill in SotA. Just other players flagged PvP. If non-flagged PvP players were properly set to not be able to attack avatars flagged Open PvP, there isn't much griefing in SotA via PvP. At least unlike what was experienced in UO. But, the question remains, you think the term PK is also unlike what we have seen in UO?

 

@Bambino

That's you're perspective on what innocent is. If I'm flagged PvP but AFK at a crafting station and you jump me, I'm going to consider it griefing even if you don't, and even if I had the option to not flag.

 

@redfish: In UO, there was no feelings on what an innocent was. There was a system in place to define alignments. You were either a PK or you weren't. In SotA, there are no innocents to kill. Innocents in SotA would be mean having Open World PvP everywhere. And, that is simply not going to happen in SotA.

 

@Bambino I don't determine innocence by game systems, but whether you kill me for no discernible reason but minding my own business.