Non-Flagged PvP Players Attacking/Stealing from PvP Flagged Players

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Bambino, May 17, 2018.

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Should non-Flagged PvP Players be able to attack/steal from those that are Flagged PvP?

  1. Yes

    35.3%
  2. No

    64.7%
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  1. Shalizar half Elven

    Shalizar half Elven Avatar

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    I find the whole argument hilarious.. Your flagged PVP meaning you want to fight and PVP. Sneak attack or dirty mechanics don't matter YOU choose to be attackable. UO and other games where players DID NOT want to be attacked had no mechanic to stop from being attacked..
    Simply UNflag until a tourny or other reason to Flag again. simple
     
  2. Trihugger

    Trihugger Avatar

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    Whatever the reason for the implementation of the "on-the-fly" PvP flag, I think we can safely say it didn't work out as planned. I think a fair trade-off would be that *IF* you want to flag and you're already out and about (party, found a terdbag you need to "delete", etc.) that it forces you to go back to the zone entrance.

    That way the convenience is mostly served that you didn't have to go back to the oracle and the grief factor is removed as it is in effect the exact same scenario as if they were PvP flagged in the first place (they just know you're PvP flagged now, too). Are they still going to get the jump on you? Probably. Would they still get the jump on you if they ran back to the oracle to PvP flag and came back? Also probably.

    As such I see this as being the fairest method to preserve the original intent of encouraging *on-the-fly* PvP, add convenience for grouping with PvP flagged people, and prevent the possibility of someone running up next to you without anything you can do about it and THEN flag for PvP.
     
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  3. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    @Kara Brae: This seems to be a contextual misunderstanding. Unless you are in it, it may be difficult to understand, but I'll try my best.

    Why a person is offended is dependent upon ones feelings. However, please understand that those comments were directed towards an apparent specific group of players and mechanics in a game system. As you said, I used those terms to describe "amoral malicious players" in Shroud of the Avatar. However, you are insinuating that I am "making a correlation between those players and players who did not want to be PK'd in UO." I was actually making a correlation between players revered as greifers that think they are PKs in a land that has rule-sets more similar to Trammel. Those comments were reflective of the players that lived in Trammel and traveled to Felucca to PvP.

    Also, I invite you to attend an EVL PvP tournament with me one Saturday @ 4PM CST/NBT. You will get a feel for the PvP culture and their nature.
     
  4. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    Exactly why no one is flagged PvP. Thus, no PvP until it is sanctioned.
     
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  5. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

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    Personally I don't think it will make a scrap of difference to those who are flagged PvP or not. Back in my UO days I pretty nearly always ran with red chars, as such any blue could attack without issue.....it made me far more aware of my surroundings.

    Generally people don't flag because they don't want to PvP at that particular time.........that wont change.
     
  6. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    I can can agree with this 90%. Evil players were players that chose to join the Evil/Holy system in Siege Perilous (An official custom UO server). However, by Lum's definition of an "evil player," the evil player (or greifer) has nothing to do with PvP. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, one cannot PK without PvP. However, one can greif without PvP. Huge difference between PvP, PK and greifer.

    I will disagree and say that this is a greifer of a whole new caliper. They are living in a non-Open PvP world and always high tale it to the oracle.

    Send the current SotA greifers back to the UO days, they would get eaten alive by folks that actually PvP.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  7. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    You don't flag PvP until you find a lame duck situation, so that's a tad bit of an exaggeration and shows unfamiliarity. As a red in UO, you could always get payback even if it meant running into a guard zone to get some finishing shots off before guards were called. In general, you actually got the opportunity to retaliate against that blue player in the process of running out of guard zone (or at times, even in guard zone). In SotA, greifers still be greifen with no consequence.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  8. blaquerogue

    blaquerogue Avatar

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    I think it was port that came up with that idea, not a pvp player! As far as i can remember most pvp was totally against it!
     
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  9. Kara Brae

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    Thank you for the explanation. :)
     
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  10. kl4nk

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    Personally i like the tension of being a target, both for attack or stealing. 100% of the time by anyone. But to be very honest, i dont stress much over being jump by a blue anymore. It just never happen. Or very rarely. And its usually by someone you expect. Ie: a pvper that isnt flag atm. And the pvp crowd is pretty small that we almost all know each other. When it does happen. I gg the victor and ask for another fight. I seriously hope to see more pvp. But i dont have high hopes....
     
  11. kaeshiva

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    See, the biggest argument that I see for "more pvp" is that the PvP folks aren't griefers, no, they don't want to gank uninterested parties. That's not why they PvP at all! They're in it for the thrill! The challenge! They want the sense of danger! But if thats the case, then why the objection to being attacked by unflagged parties? Surely that's just more thrill and more danger, right? Right?

    Personally, I think the whole thing is silly. I think the XP bonus is silly, I think forced multiplayer pvp scenes are silly, and the ransom system is silly, and there is zero incentive whatsoever for me to flag for PvP, ever. And if they add PvE-based incentives its just going to make the whole thing worse because you'll get even more folks who are only flagging for the pve content and not because they want to have a fight, and if they get ganked, then it will be off to the forums to moan about it, I suspect, where people will say the thing -you flagged up, you knew the risk.

    What's the solution?

    Honestly, I think PvP status should be a more permanent decision, which would rectify a lot of the issues with flag-and-run-to-oracle. Either you're an outlaw, or you're not. Its not like you can murder someone and then be right as rain by cuddling a few kittens in the oracle confirmatory. You should have to work toward redemption if indeed redemption is something you're after. Make it a true lifestyle choice and let those who choose it interact amongst themselves, and those who do not, cannot.
     
  12. Scoffer

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    Risk: You painted a big target on your back
    Reward: 20% xp bonus for being pvp flagged on multiplayer

    You can't have it both ways.
     
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  13. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    @Scoffer It's fair to say that the 10% multiplayer bonus is for everyone and has nothing to do with PvP.

    The 10% PvP bonus is not why people flag PvP. Not to mention, they tend to die more making it harder for them to maintain XP.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  14. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    Absolutely not. It's more like bend over and take your best shot. You flag PvP to PvP, not to have random non-flagged players steal & attack from you at any given time. If that's the case, give us Open PvP and drop flagging altogether so retaliation can take place.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  15. 3devious

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    Funny thing is I am more put off by the stealing than the attacking. The fact that you can teal an avatar's armor while they are wearing it makes me think that someone needs to get a different job. That has been reported since "release" and the reason I will never flag. I don't mind dying to an assclown but if someone pickpocket-ted me and stole my helmet with the knight marshal winged helm pattern on it I would be doing the curly shuffle "whoop whoop whoop" ragequit! Everyone has their "enough" button and that is mine.
     
  16. Hornpipe

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    Absolutely. Personaly, I have no issue with the system as it is. And I'm "flagged" most of the time (one of the rare ? you see on the overworld map I guess). I'm not a griefer through.

    When you are flagged, you need to be aware that everyone can be a threat for you. It's the rule. You adapt or you die.

    Then, just look at your nearby player list (when you have one) and act accordingly.

    All the unflagged people in your zone (flagged or not) can potentialy attack you. That's what PvP means.

    Once @Chris, some months ago, asked us about that on Discord : I answered that I liked the thrill of the flag, most of the time.

    The problem with PvP is absolutely not the flag system.

    The problem with PvP is that it's built like a battle royale contest, encouraging ganking fests.

    As long as there is no faction, everyone will potentialy be the target for anyone.

    As long as there is absolutely no negative impact when you attack/steal someone else (only the ransom reward), then griefing will be the biggest reason to be flagged, alas.

    I have to admit that it doesn't make much sense.

    I agree with that.

    Isn't the thief supposed to be incognito until he actually pick pocket someone ? I mean, if the thief had to flag PvP before thieving, then, he or she wouldn't be incognito anymore. Only the renowned thief, whose head is put on price, should have an issue here. Hence the need for a bounty and reputation system.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
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  17. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    That is not what PvP means. There are like ten people that flag PvP constantly. If we were in an Open PvP world, I'd agree, but that is not the case. "At least 80% of my open world PvP interaction has come from non-flagged PvP players. All of which pounced on me while I was low health or AFK. Right after, they run straight to the oracle to restore the oracles protection. IMO, these people are just griefers. The crazy thing is that it's by design. This most definitely deters players from flagging PvP." Although, this is the current state of the PvP flagging system. It's understandable that we will never see open world PvP but, if a player can attack/steal from me at any given time, then I should be able to do the same to them.

    The flag system is huge part of it. It is what provokes the gank fests and a maraud of other situations that have salty endings. How is griefing the biggest reason to be flagged? You flag only to get griefed by players that want nothing to do with PvP; just a quick lick.

    Incognito is one thing and would be a great asset, but thriving under a broken flag system is another. We should look at this issue under the confines of the current system, not a future bounty and reputation system that may or may not happen. If you want to be a thief, stealth up to a player, then make the steal. And, it shouldn't be an equipped item until some type of disarm/knockdown is implemented into stealing.
     
  18. Hornpipe

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    The problem is not the flag. Griefers can sneak attack you without any warning even when they are flagged. Sure an unflagged person can't be attacked at first when a stealthy flagged could. But as long as you won't see the stealthy person most of the time, and as long as you will be two shoted, the result will be exactly the same. And if the devs do as it please you, your next post will be for deleting silent movement or nerfing sneak attack.
    When you are PvP flagged, you are supposed to be prepared to such situations. One of the most important thing some people are just unable to do is to withdraw when they feel like the situation is bad for them. Of course, sometimes, not so often, you won't be able to avoid an unfair fight but if you are not prepared to evaluate your own situation when flagged, and if you refuse to do so, that means that you only want fair fights even when all the odds are against you. That's not possible, especially not in a battle royale system. Griefers are part of your life when you are flagged.
    The only real big problem here is that this behaviour has no consequences for them at all. So it's always a winning bet when you are a griefer. Only reputation and bounties, factions and every system which can define who is really your enemy could help with that. If you change the flag system that we have now, griefers will be flagged. Those who can't fight against you won't fight against you. Those who can will just harass you even more. And there is nothing you will be able to do against that, except if you are a good griefer yourself. By definition, people who do not attack on sight in a battle royale are generaly the ones who die first, except when they are dodgy enough. But, of course, you can believe what you want.

    Don't say that incognito would be a great asset if your only solution is to destroy it. An unflagged person is incognito. A stealthy person is not incognito. A stealthy person in Novia is simply invisible, which is not the same, especially as long as you are warned of the danger before the thief tries to pick pocket you. Remove the ability to steal for unflagged persons, and you won't have any real thiefs in this game anymore.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2018
  19. blaquerogue

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    For a non pvp to just outright attack you when your low, is that not the same as when your pvp flagged and I am pvp flagged your low and I gank you? Griefers are not just PVP by any means because of this set up the Non pvp can now grief and get away! Congratulations Port, you've evened the ground on Griefing! Too bad I cant catch that ******* and kill him before he goes back and unflags. Typically by the time it takes for me to res! screw that! Why dont we just make it open PVP so when the non pvp is down low i can gank his ass?????
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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  20. Bambino

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    How is it not the problem when they won’t even flag? If they flag, they’d be chucked around all day. They don’t want that. Most of these guys aren’t in it for the PvP at all. Make them flag before they even think about committing PvP actions. However, I highly doubt you will find these guys flagged at all.

    Combat balance can be left for another conversation, but there is a completely different result. The point is that a player can actually counter a preemptive strike by a PvP flagged player that attacks/steals them from behind. And, if you don’t catch them before the attack/steal, you at least have a chance at redemption.

    You will never be prepared for hundreds of players that can do anything they want to you, but you can’t do to them, at any given time. If anyone wants to commit a PvP act, they should be flagged PvP. They should be on the same ground with you. PvP does not mean you put griefing mechanics in for people that don’t want to flag PvP.

    Wrong. People that exploit the broken flagging mechanics simply withdraw and punk out as they run to the oracle so they won’t have to face redemption. Most people withdraw from PvP flagging completely due to the broken flagging system. Or, they take advantage of the broken flagging system to solely grief.

    Forget the fairness behind discrepancies in XP, player skill, a faster computer, or more reliable internet connection. We’re talking about the fairness of the PvP flagging system itself. They are not griefing if they don’t run to an oracle like a little baby. Even if it was five guys that ganked you, they get much respect for being flagged PvP before attacking you and not running to the oracle. You can get salty and call them gankers though. :p

    I highly doubt you’d find many griefers flagging. Most of these guys don’t even PvP or are flat out bad at it. We have to rely on what we got, not some imaginary system that we hope to get implemented.

    There never was an incognito ability implemented. You can role-play that incognito exist all day, but in the end, it’s not in the game; period. It would be a great asset, IF it were in the game.

    Warned? In what sense or manner? I agree that stealthy is a player that is hard to see, but there needs to actually be an incognito system in place. Suggestion for Incognito: Change a players name to something random and hide their PvP flag – should have a duration and a cool-down. Although the PvP flag is hidden, other PvP flagged players should be able to commit PvP acts against them at any given time.

    So, for a thief to be real, we have to give all players the ability to grief PvPers and leave the battle ground barren? That’s what we have going on now.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
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