Non-Flagged PvP Players Attacking/Stealing from PvP Flagged Players

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Bambino, May 17, 2018.

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Should non-Flagged PvP Players be able to attack/steal from those that are Flagged PvP?

  1. Yes

    35.3%
  2. No

    64.7%
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  1. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    It's no mystery that PvP still needs quite a bit of balance work and an additional karma/alignment system. Allowing non-flagged players to attack flagged players is absolutely mind boggling.

    Players do not go to the oracle to sign-up for PvP. They do that via duel request or by sanctioning a fight in a PvP zone. When a player decides to flag PvP, they are basically agreeing to be greifed. Currently, there is little to no PvP involved in removing your protection with the oracle. The only reason to flag Open PvP is for the 10% skill gain boost. However, when non-flagged PvP players can pounce on you at any given time, that little bonus means nothing. When I say pounce, they don't work for the kill or steal, they just wait for lame duck situations. To be quite frank, all the button-smashing PvP trammie flunkies that wish they could PvP have been given the tools to reap vengeance against all PvP'ers. Some call it being PK. However, PKs have not been given the tools to exist in SotA. I do not understand why there is a system in place that allows non-PvP'ers to grief players that actually PvP with PvP. The PvP flagging system functioning like this is a complete deterrent to overall PvP in Shroud of the Avatar. If there were more PvP'ers, I'm sure you would get a lot more complaints, but then again, who would want to flag PvP under the current circumstances.

    @Chris: Out of concern for the health of the PvP population, please prevent non-Flagged PvP players from being able to attack/steal from those that are Flagged PvP. I know there is a lot of work to be done still , but please consider at least making this change in the meantime.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 18, 2018
  2. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    This is the reason I stopped being PvP flagged. I don't normally even play PvP but with SOTA I was PvP flagged for a long time. But I got sick of non PvP players stealing/attacking etc so quit being PvP.
     
  3. Tane Mahuta

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    It's a bad design decision and one that has decreased the number of people who would have been flagged PvP and thus taken some fun out of the game.
     
  4. Dee Hood

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    I'd like to hear from Port. what there logic is for this. Seems a bit weird.
     
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  5. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    I don't PvP, but doesn't stealing auto-flag the thief for PvP ?
     
  6. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    It does and that's part of the issue. Thieves should have to flag PvP before stealing and actually have to stealth up on their prey. Right now they have it too easy. No one want's to deal with the prospect that any player around therm could steal from them at any given time. At least in UO, any player could be stolen from, not just PvP flagged players. We also had guards that would catch thieves a portion of the time.
     
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  7. Helvig Ingvildsdottir

    Helvig Ingvildsdottir Avatar

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    Yes. Same as attacking. But until that point in time you are invulnerable to other players because you are not flagged. And that is the problem. You can go around unflagged, wait for a good opportunity, and then strike. Most griefers then quickly run to the next oracle building and restore the Oracle's protection.
     
  8. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Ok, that sux........
     
  9. Daxxe Diggler

    Daxxe Diggler Avatar

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    This mechanic was introduced a long time ago, at the request of the PVPers... or at least by suggestion from players at the time.

    The main complaint was that nobody flagged for PVP so those who wanted it didn't have enough targets or competition. There was also an issue where if a PVP player was in a group, they could be healed by party members as they attacked (or was attacked by) another PVPer outside the group. This was unfair for that solo player, so they made it so that if you helped the party member, you become flagged and the lone PVPer had a chance to take you out of the fight.

    The ability to just attack a PVP flagged person was asked for to entice people who normally don't flag to jump in occasionally, and thus would potentially bring more PVP into the game.

    So you are complaining about a feature that previous players asked for to increase the amount of PVP.

    And IMO, if you are flagging for PVP just to get the 10% XP bonus, then you should reconsider your decisions and make sure you are prepared to be attacked at any time, by anyone... and NOT just by PVP flagged players... that's the trade off for getting that "risk" bonus.
     
  10. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    It still is an issue.

    This was only catalyst reasoning at best. If anything, it seemed, and still seems, like a work-around for situations like this.

    And, did it potentially bring more PvP? No.

    Like who? I can't name ONE PvPer that agrees with the system as it is. They certainly are not PvPing or running around with a PvP flag.

    10% Bonus to flag? Have you ever flagged PvP and played the game freely? Based on your response, I will assume not. There is no trade-off. The XP boost is minuscule compared to this so-called trade-off. Point blank, in the current circumstance, the only time you should flag is to get greifed.
     
  11. Vicious Malice

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    I wonder what was going on in the minds of PvPer that requested this system. This is not going to entice anyone to flag. It only entices people to be unflagged 98% of the time and then go for the quick kill with little to no challenge. Boring. Unattractive. And that's why I won't flag but rather frequent PvP scenes. At least there everyone has the chance to be the first to attack an unsuspecting opponent, if there ever is one.
     
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  12. Kara Brae

    Kara Brae Avatar

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    In the circumstances that you describe I agree that it is a bad idea and I completely understand why players don't want to flag themselves and become sitting ducks for every malicious player.

    At the same time I remember discussions from way back when players requested the ability of non-flagged players to defend a PVP-flagged party member being attacked by a group of PVPers. The argument was that groups of PVPers were unfairly ganging up on single PVPers, and the friends of the attacked players were helpless to jump to their defense.

    When I compare the two situations, in my opinion the first one (PVP-flagged players being ambushed/stolen from by non PVP-flagged players) is worse by far. I would be strongly in favor of removing the ability of non-flagged players to attack flagged players if this behavior is prevalent and discourages players from flagging themselves.

    In closing I would like to add that I am personally offended by the language "care bear wanna be PKs" and "button-smashing PvP trammie flunkies that wish they could PvP " to describe amoral malicious players. UO had a reputation for malicious PKs ganging up on newbies who were completely incapable of defending themselves. Those were the cowardly PKs who made the game miserable for new players and afterwards bemoaned the exodus of their intended victims to Trammel. It is the same type of person who now abuses the ability to unfairly attack flagged PVPers in SotA.

    I never played UO because I never would have been able to survive UO newbie status as a target of PK maliciousness. If I had been a UO player, I would have welcomed the introduction of a safe world to enjoy the game in. That does not make me, or all UO players who fled to Trammel, a "button-smashing flunkie that wish they could PvP".
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  13. CatweazleX

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    The main problem here is that "freshly flagged PvP'er" (or blue PKs in UO speak) can regain their protection far to fast.

    Two things already mentioned here:
    - in UO (the good old, pre Renaissance) everyone can attack, steal and also _heal_ everyone. This also means one is able to go onto the blue PKs / greifers before they start an attack. Currently the blue PKs always have the first strike / stun.
    - if you are in a group you can heal an PvP'er. If they won't get flagged PvP that would be unfair to the other side.

    Well if someone is flagged PvP he/she has decided to play in an unprotected world, that also means one can be attacked by _all_ other ones. For that this one get the 10% XP reward.

    Things that i thing would be good:
    - PvP flagged should also be healed and buffed by everyone, not only by group members. As it is with attacking and stealing, right now. This will flag the helping one as PvP.
    - There should be a seven day lock on your current flag. When you become flagged as PvP one has to wait seven days after the last kill (when he/she also mades the first strike) until the PvP flag can removed. When one remove his PvP flag he/she have to wait seven days until the PvP flag can be set again. This counter measure should slow down blue PK'ing to the "sensless" point, without disturbing the PvE'ers and PvP'ers.
    If "blue PKs" still find their satisfaction in killing the weak and/or nearly dead PvP'ers they can do this but PvP flagged, this also means they do not always have the first strike.

    The current system does not allow to get accidentally / unwanted PvP flagged. You can switch the confirmation off, and is not possible to do any action that flag you PvP. With the confirmation on, you get always asked and informed that this action will flag you PvP. Healing and buffing should be included into this. At this point PvP / unproteced does not only means negative "interaction" with other players.
    With this system the PvE lock can be done by forcing the confirmation to be off for the first seven days of switching to PvE.

    Seven days sounds long. And for blue PKs it means 14 days before the can do the next blue kill. But i think most people want to be either fulltime PvE or fulltime PvP. Also everyone can switch to Party or Private mode to be safe at any time.

    For mixed groups or PvP zones the flag should be reset to the previous state on leaving the group or zone.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  14. Vicious Malice

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    Healing and buffing is already included in this. Same mechanics, actually.

    Peronally, I wouldn't mind turning this feature off entirely. If you want to help your PvP friends, be flagged from the start. Like in UO with guildwars: If you were in a warring guild, you could not be healed by people that were not in your guild or in one of the guilds you were at war with. Sure, sometimes in PvE that sucked. But we could handle it. It did lead to a few funny situations where you would icq an actual enemy and ask them to please come ress you deep down in some dungeon. Or our tamer guildie that kept quitting the guild every time she died and immediately joined again because she died so often in PvE she relied on ressurrections from strangers. No, I wouldn't mind having it the same way in SotA. This would make PvP more predictable, and who knows, might even entice people to band together for PvP on purpose. Would that be fun? I think so!
     
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  15. CatweazleX

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    Really, i will test this.
    What is about adding the ability to heal/rezz and buff PvE flagged by PvP flagged players?. But no attacking and stealing of course

    Edit: i mean without being in the same group, for both. (Or grouped at all)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  16. Bambino

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    That is not entirely true. For the most part, the non-flagged players that are attacking PvP flagged players are not PvPers themselves. Although, it's something I don't always mention due to the judgment bestowed upon it, I was also a true red PK through and through during my UO days. I most certainly did not consider myself a greifer just because I PKed a player. However, those days are long gone. PKs are long gone and SotA does not offer the game mechanics to enable a player to be a PK. Furthermore, I most certainly don't abide by a non-PvP greifer playstyle "by ununfairly attack[ing] flagged PVPers in SotA."

    I use to help run a guild called NEW. I'm sure we would have gotten you on your feet treading through lands filled with PKs. Many non-PvP'ers did in those days.
     
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  17. Vicious Malice

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    Ahh about not being in the same group, I'm not sure. Will try it as soon as I get the chance.

    I am pretty certain, though, that a PvP flagged person can heal/ress/buff everyone. Just not the other way round without the confirmation.
     
  18. Bambino

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    @Vicious Malice: You are right.

    Before we ended up in the current debacle, there use to be cool downs on removing your flag. If I remember right, my main issue with the cool-down was that it lasted for twelve hours or more. However, others have posted creative solutions involving cool-downs and toggling the PvP flag.
     
  19. CatweazleX

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    This would be a good thing. Like to see that PvP flagged, the unprotected ones, are able to help everyone with heals/rezz/buffs without grouping first. Because PvE flagged also do not need to group up to do negative actions onto other players.
     
  20. Kara Brae

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    You state that "the non-flagged players that are attacking PvP flagged players are not PvPers themselves". I accept your statement as fact, since you have knowledge of the PVP scene in SotA that I lack. What I find unfair is your making a correlation between those players and players who did not want to be PK'd in UO. Unless you can provide a list of all the offending players and sworn statements or proof that they were all Trammel players who are now griefing PVPers in order to get revenge, I find your insults undeserved and therefore unfair and offensive.

    Admittedly, I have no personal experience with UO, but I can quote Lum the Mad who posted the following back in 2004:

    In UO, the “evil player” was not a PvPer (because PvPers crave challenge, something which the grief player assiduously avoids), but someone who indulged in specifically targeted grief.

    It seems to me that the players you criticize in SotA (who grief PVPers by sneaking up unflagged) sound a lot like the subset of UO PK griefers who only targeted helpless players in UO. If those same players started playing SotA, it would be in character for them to not engage in "real" PVP as long as they can grief other players with less danger to themselves. I think it makes sense to assume that it is the UO type of griefer that has found new hunting grounds in SotA. If you captured them all and sent them in a time machine back to when UO was the only online game available, I wager they would be PKs there preying only on newbies.
     
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