Non-Flagged PvP Players Attacking/Stealing from PvP Flagged Players

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Bambino, May 17, 2018.

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Should non-Flagged PvP Players be able to attack/steal from those that are Flagged PvP?

  1. Yes

    35.3%
  2. No

    64.7%
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  1. LGNZH

    LGNZH Avatar

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    The UO's Pk's&Guards system were based on Karma and was the best i can remember.
    In SotA, there is no that... no?
    There is no " Guards! " command... :(
     
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  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    My comment was intended somewhat sarcastically.
    You flag PvP to PvP.
    So you have no objection to a flagged player attacking you or stealing from you. You can't object to this, its the very purpose of flagging.

    Objecting to people 'safely' lurking, unflagged, waiting for an opportunity ...yes, I can see why this is unfair, frustrating, annoying (insert list of similar adjectives).
    I think its far too easy to flag on, flag off, willy nilly. I have immense respect for PvP inclined players who practice what they preach, players for whom being flagged is a way of life.

    I find it a lot easier to believe that someone "lives for the danger" and "enjoys the thrill" if its an always-on situation, and not someone who flags up as an opportunist or to go on a gank patrol, then scurries home to safely snuggle once more under the Oracle's wing. To be honest, I find this behavior a bit hypocritical. The problem is, the game encourages it by giving PVE incentives for PvP, encouraging people to flag or go to PvP zones for PvE-based rewards or bonuses and these people have no desire whatsoever to actually PvP. We really need to stop this, and instead focus on ways to make PvP rewarding for its own sake - unique pvp slottable gems/gear with bonuses against other players/titles/achievements/rankings/territory control/unique patterns obtained from pvp - perhaps even a PvP skill line that gives bonuses vs. other players only - (ie, no PvE incentive) - something to make it meaningful.

    Griefing is not meaningful pvp. Its griefing. Chasing down and killing someone just trying to complete their quest, is not meaingful pvp. I really sympathise to "true" PvPers out there who just want their challenge and thrill of fighting non-ai targets, the folks who want to have guild wars, and the rest of it - because the "other" PvPers - those who can't have fun in a game unless they're ruining someone else's time, are letting you down and making the entire subject unsavory for everyone.
     
  3. Bambino

    Bambino Avatar

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    @kaeshiva:I apologize for the lack of attention to detail in your post and I do stand corrected. You are 100% correct in every aspect.
     
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  4. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

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    I like that when youre flagged pvp you can be attacked by anyone.

    What i would change tho is that if you flag by attacking a pvper, you accumulate a permenent count that doesnt go away till you are killed.


    That way theres no reason not to flag pvp at an oracle first, but you can still ambush somone if you REALLY want to
     
  5. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    Whatever the arguments for it are, the end result is less players flagged PvP - personally I think that is a bad thing for the game.
     
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  6. Ristra

    Ristra Avatar

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    What is still needed is a moral system. A change to the flagging is not needed.

    Attacking a player while not being flagged PvP should be a penalty in this moral system.
     
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  7. Bambino

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    @EMPstrike: Under the current system, without your purposed changes, we are better off with non-flagged players keeping to themselves. Once an alignment or karma system is in place, then maybe there should be a reconsideration of allowing anyone to attack a flagged player.
     
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  8. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Karma \o/
     
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  9. Bambino

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    So, meanwhile PvP suffers? As I mentioned to Arkah, without your purposed changes, then flagging is an issue. There hasn't been any mention of such system coming into place; at least that I know of. Meanwhile, the flagging system needs to be reverted.
     
  10. Ristra

    Ristra Avatar

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    Actually, yes. People will scream more when a band aid is ripped off than they will waiting for a true fix.

    My position on flagging open PvP is you are requesting that the Oracle drop the protections. That makes you fully open to attack.

    Those that do not request the Oracle drop protection and attack anyone should be punished.

    The other part to that is being open to first attack should not be the deciding factor in winning or losing a fight.

    That’s the nature of open PvP. What people are wanting is a purpose to PvP. The purpose should not change open PvP. It should be parallel to open PvP.
     
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  11. Bambino

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    People that actually PvP won't be screaming. Maybe thieves and non-flagged players. However, they aren't the primary concern when it comes to PvP. We need more PvP now, not in six-months. Thieves will have to actually work for a steal and unflagged players have no business with PvP anyway.
    I agree but, let's talk about now. Not a system that hasn't been announced, much less fleshed out. It could takes weeks to months.
     
  12. Draugur2

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    I think you should only be able to flag from the Oracle or entering a PVP zone, just my two cents.
     
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  13. Ristra

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    We have had it both ways. Nothing changed. The PvP crowd has left for the next hype.

    The devs don’t discuss possible changes with us. So looking for a quick change is no different than discussing long term changes.

    They have the charts right in front of them. They can see how many people attack from the non flagged and how many are flagged. All we have is anecdotal evidence. If Chris see people complaining about this but the logs do not support the claim. We will not see a change. (Unless you subscribe to the theory that Chris likes to fix things that are not broken)

    In short, unless the devs give us some insight into what they see we are day dreaming. Might as well day dream big.
     
  14. Bambino

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    @Ristra: Many of the OG PvP'ers from back in the day are still around. They just don't PvP. Or, flag at least. IMO, most of the PvP crowd that has left for the next hype came to the realization that there never would be Open PvP in the very early days.

    All I can say is that we used to have a lot more PvP tags and PvP. But, like you said, I don't have numbers. Going back to the system something like 3+ years ago, we also had cool downs before one could regain protection from the oracle.

    This is something we needed to revert back to like yesterday. My proposal will at least put PvP in a better situation until our big dreams might come true.
     
  15. Ristra

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    @Bambino I guess it's all perspective. The Devs, IIRC, made the change to make it easier to join in on the PvP. So maybe they think that it is working? Hard to say without dev feedback.

    What I'd like to see is: leave open PvP as is. Then incorporate a PvP system based around the moral system. Generically, using UO terms, flagging PvP with the Oracle makes you red. Actions can make you red also. Only, actions take longer to revert.

    The part I see the devs having trouble with is "what" actions would push you into PvP. And, how does that cross the line of non-consensual PvP?

    Honestly, I don't think PvP is that high on the radar for them to do anything. - "working as intended"
     
  16. blaquerogue

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    perfect solution to this whole problem is take away the ability to attack unless you go flag for PVP, like it was way back when. I mean if your going to give PVP the short straw, at least give the PVE a short straw too, isnt that what all the complaining was back in the day PVP get special stuff and non pvp dont?
    Its the same difference..............but now thats not an issue since it doesnt effect PVE at the moment!???
    Really all these non pvp people cry about not getting fair treatment, this time around its unfair for PVP!
    Please! Simple solution with one click would be to take away the ability for a non pvp person to attack a flagged one unless they go flag PVP prior! easy fix and if Port cant do it, then what the hell are we all paying for??? Beginner game devs? Amateurs?? If so we've all invested in the wrong game!

    It also effects PVP's game! God forbid PVP anything ever effects PVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! But its ok for PVE to effect PVP's gameplay, I see how it is...............
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
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  17. Deathblow

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    Funny, Richard never resolved this.
     
  18. Pounce

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    Why not stick all pvp flagged into there own instance. Problem solved. You flag pvp you are loaded into the pvp instance.
    No need to keep 15+ or how many pvp zones, no need to entice people who do not really want to pvp into pvp so they can see the pvp zones, no extra developement cost for making pvp zones that are most the time empty anyways.
    With pvp players in there own instance they still can buy and sell at player vendors, can switch back to the "vanilla players" by unflagging, but given thy are in there own instance no mix up happens.

    Mixing PvE and PvP players is never a wise solution as the original UO showed.

    I played lots of Eve but never UO because i simply never was in the mood to serve as entertainment (EVE has the safe zones that allow for new players to reach the point where they are not easy prey, but to get anywhere in higher levels one needs to PvP, crossing lawless systhems was an thrill, commerce happend in the lawfull systhems, everything peachy)

    But the mix we have not only fosters problems, the quest systhem adds to it and the hints at "making pve players go to pvp areas by offering special or more materials in pvp zones" is an receipe for flamewars.

    Fact, every type of PvP systhem will be gamed by trolls

    Fact, an mixed systhem enables trolls, especially one where one can switch near instant (or log out and in on overmap)

    Fact, mixing two populations this way never works well, and PvP and PvE toons are two very different animals so there is no point in mixing them (I am talking about the skill build, not the player behind the screen), the PvE skilled toon is at an big disatvantage (or has insane ammounts of skillpoints to do booth well)

    Two seprate instances, flagging switches you to the approbiate one, case closed.
     
  19. Feeyo

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    The current PvP system is ok. It needs a few tweaks here and there.
    I am totally ok having the danger that non PvP can pickpocket me or attack me anywhere they want. As long as they also get flagged. Because revenge is pretty sweet.
    The better system would be that, players that do get an instant PvP flag because of attacking or stealing. Should get a very high cooldown where they can not enable their protection for some period. See it as some punishment.
    The players who disable their protection from the oracle at their own choice should have the normal behaviour how it currently is.

    Also they could use this same cooldown system to flag them as coward/criminal. We then can use this same flag system to enable other systems like a bounty system.

    Dont go putting PvP'ers and non PvP'ers on different instances, that is just silly.
     
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  20. 3devious

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    I second that the cool-down should be longer. You should also lose courage virtue (I know some people don't care about that but it would at least deter the minmaxers.
     
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