Observation on Crafting Enjoyment: Deco vs. Armor/Weapons

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by mass, Apr 12, 2017.

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  1. mass

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    I've been going through a huge crafting binge my last few gaming sessions and I noticed that I got far more enjoyment out of crafting deco than I did from crafting armor and weapons.

    1. For deco, you sometimes need a lot of resources, but since you aren't concerned about breakage, you don't need to craft so many, so the relative resource usage feels more efficient, even with complicated recipes like the carved oak stuff.

    2. There's far more diversity in deco crafting than in armor and weapons. If feels less like a grind when you can go for a stretch constantly making new things instead of the same thing over and over again.

    3. All deco pieces feel like they can eventually be used or sold as opposed the great volumes of junk I produce when I make armor and weapons just to level skills.

    I was hoping that some discussion of this might lead to ideas of how to make crafting more enjoyable overall (without suggesting changes to core crafting mechanics). I think increased item diversity for weapons and armor would help this, though I fear the 'patterns' system is what they are ultimately depending on.
     
  2. Vladamir Begemot

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    Many months ago the Devs were shouted down about having any sort of realistic decay due to people thinking it was a cash grab to sell COTO's, as if they just made up the idea to make money. In reality it has existed since the dawn of time, and not having it breaks games. I remember my days of WoW, I burned through gear daily in the early game.

    So the gear economy was obliterated because when gear never breaks you (almost) never need new gear. Gear rarely sells, so you want to move any of it you give it away at 1/10th the cost it took to make it. Only now, at the end, when the gear economy has ground to a halt, do we admit that gear has to decay.

    Yesterday on the Postmortem the Devs mentioned that there are huge quantities of weapons/armor just sitting unsold on vendors. They finally felt comfortable (although apprehensive) about mentioning gear decay again. It looks like we might finally get it in a way that will lead to gear value approaching its crafting cost.

    That'll take care of #3.

    @Lord British also said he thinks furniture should decay. I agree, otherwise we are going to be faced with the same issue with deco. It takes quite a bit to decorate a house, but once you're done it's permenant1. This eventually will break the furniture market, but it might take a few years to do so.
     
  3. Vladamir Begemot

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    Oh, there was also some confusion about what I was talking about yesterday, the confusion being it was thought I was talking about NPC's buying items. NPC's don't even exist in my world, except for the Crafting and Magic vendor selling me things to craft with. I don't expect to ever sell them anything but rusty iron swords. I'm only talking player economy.
     
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  4. mass

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    Decay is a tricky thing for the economy. I agree it's needed so that there's a market for new equipment. However, if it is too severe, the perceived value of the equipment goes down. We already have the issue that most equipment cannot be sold for the raw material value.

    I've said this a few times on this board, but I really believe that allowing crafters to level up through quests and other alternative means than simply crafting junk would alleviate the pricing disparity between raw materials mid level equipment, as well as greatly reduce the junk produced that's flooding the market. If we only crafted, when we wanted to make something, crafting would be much better. I think this is also part of the reason deco crafting is more fun than equipment crafting for me.
     
  5. Vladamir Begemot

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    Interesting ideas.

    It would be hard for gear prices to go any lower than they are now, which is about 1/10th of crafting cost. Even at those prices the gear isn't moving, according to Port. It's going to take a long time to wash out the backstock.
     
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  6. Bowen Bloodgood

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    I think it's more than that.. They've been avoiding gear breakage since kickstarter and since have held on to the idea of forcing people to 'retire' their gear with some method of ever increasing repair costs. Which I have (off and on for 4 years now) railed against since they first talked about it. And I have offered several different ways to have gear breakage while still allowing longevity and gear history.. (the idea of gear history is a major factor in wanting longevity in items.. but is something they haven't implemented yet).

    If you ask me.. COTOs have no business being part of the repair system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  7. Turk Key

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    I am totally against gear breakage. I would rather that the buffs crafted into the gear slowly decay. Crafters should then be able to repair specific buffs that were crafted into the gear originally. The better the crafter, the closer to original buffs they could repair. IMO it is totally impossible to recraft good gear (material wise) with our current system. The losses are way to great. I still do not have a set of chain I am satisfied with after grinding through thousands and thousands of ore. At my current levels north of GM, it still would take me perhaps a thousand ores to get a suitable chestplate, legs, arms, helm or gloves (each). Once I get them it would be supremely better if I could simply (or not so simply) re-up the buffs as they erode.
     
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  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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    It depends on how breakage is done. Part of the problem is how they have crafting set up for breakage during mastercraft and enchanting. Which causes just the huge demand on resources and makes it that much harder to get a good set of gear. Granted, there needs to be a function to act as a limiter to prevent ultra uber +20 of every type of item.. First I would suggest an alternative.. like just sucking up material on failed attempts instead of breaking..

    But the problem with no breakage is in the end the market ends up saturated with gear.. and it seems we've already hit that point. There are other issues I've brought up many times but I don't have the time right now.
     
  9. Vladamir Begemot

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    over saturated gear market = no profitable gear sales = crafters subsidizing advernturers because they are leveling their skill.

    Right now I advise anyone interested in not being broke to never craft gear.

    It's an economy killer right now. If not fixed, it's a game killer, because it kills the crafting side of the game and, well, that's half the game!
     
  10. majoria70

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    I'm not on board about deco decaying unless it is interesting and fun in some way. Where is the imagination? Punishment is not fun without a reason. Now if my cat scratched the furniture and it needed repaired or replaced that would be one thing. Then we get a furniture repair recipe. Also being able to have dye tubs to dye furniture. In some games or one that I can think of furniture meant something like deco buffs , but that would be delving into a whole other realm that we don't need to attempt really. So I vote no to deco decay unless there is a good and fun reason for it;).
     
  11. Vladamir Begemot

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    Well, other than keeping the game alive for years longer, I always pictured it as a use based thing. Have dinner parties, expect to lose 1 point of durability on that chair.
     
  12. Gideon Thrax

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    I went through a crafting phase that lasted a couple months - I have crafted practically everything there's a recipe for and gone adventuring for all the mats all over the map, done all the mining, harvesting, gathering, refining, processing... I learned my way around Novia pretty well and hardly ever need a map anymore to go anywhere. That said, crafting is lopsided and soul crushing. I've used prosperity tools, artisan tools, and every flavor of tool engraving kit. I can do everything I need to do with a plain merchant bought crafting table and tool... it's just takes longer and makes the entire crafting process less enjoyable. I've made every kind of armor and weapon that can be made - and I've blown every single piece of it up trying to level masterwork proficiency and alchemy. Another part of the mechanic that grinds my gears is how decorations don't decay... that's kinda jacked up, imo. Armor breaks, weapons break, foods and potions are temporary, but decorations last forever - that is just (---------), it makes absolutely no sense to me.

    I have a very deep respect for the master craftsmen that have put in the time to get on the high side of crafting proficiency - I pray for them often. And I do still worry about the economy and wonder why everything at every level of the crafting process is so retarded expensive.
     
  13. mass

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    Yeah, this is a great example of where decay can be good, but needs very careful implementation. Since most players are gold poor to begin with, the first expense they are likely to cut is deco expense, particularly if it doesn't last a reasonable time.
     
  14. Vladamir Begemot

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    Lol, and it is much appreciated!

    Agreed, I don't see a future where your chair breaks in short time frames though. And some stuff might not even have decay, who knows? In RL, beds, chairs, lights, these need pretty regular replacement. Mounted antlers, probably your grandchildren will need to give them a touch up.
     
  15. Barugon

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    I believe they had it right when you were able to fully repair a piece of gear with a COTO. This made the really high-end gear desirable because you knew that once you spent the big coin for it, you could keep it repaired. Now, however, once you've repaired it a few times, it becomes junk, so the perceived value is much lower. This is especially true for weapons.
     
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  16. nonaware

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    it has to be this way or why would I ever need a new bow, helmet or boots once I got the stats I wanted?
     
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  17. Barugon

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    That's the other side of the argument. The drawback is that you're not going to get the return on investment for that +14 fustian epic cloth chestpiece of necromancy.
     
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  18. mass

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    Perhaps some compromise, like a few more extensions with COTOs. I think their data could tell them something about this, but again, it can be tricky to analyze. They need good experimental design to see if these changes would have their intended effects.
     
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  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    That's a good point. That piece of gear is something around 1,000,000 gold to craft right now, if you got the +14 by having a Exceptional, and 4 Enchants and 3 MW. If it took 4 of each it's like 8 million to finally get it.

    How would one ever use that long enough to make 1 million gold out of it? Seems like a losing proposition all around. Maybe it's just an Ego piece?

    If you picked one up off a vendor for anything less than a million, you should be really thanking that person for subsidizing you.

    I do. I pick up stupidly cheap gear all the time, and throw it in a trunk.
     
  20. mass

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    You expecting significant market shift at some point?
     
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