Overland Map Changes

I think having the ability to go from one hex to another without going to an overland map will make a lot of explorers happy.

The thing I loved about WoW? no loading scenes .. the immersion of seeing something in the distance and walking towards it was amazing. Finding little caves or NPCs in the middle of nowhere was very exciting.

The thing I loved about Guild Wars? That each zone you could walk around to unveil the fog of war and uncover the whole area on a map and you could either go out to the big overland map .. or just move into the next "zone" (loading screen) . .but you felt they were all connected. You could then fast travel between major towns once you 'walked' from zone to zone. It was great for exploring.

The overland map is fine, but having find an edge of an instance ... only to get thrown back out to the overland map .. to move over to next hex .. and enter a new instance is a bit immersion kill.

I understand they are trying to go for that Ultima 5 feel where you walk around on an overland map and "enter" a town .. but in today's day and age, it doesn't give you a good connection. In Ultima 5 .. that worked because that overland map is where you spent a LOT of your time. The overland map in this game is just a travel mechanic.

It makes it feel like Dragon Age I .. which I didn't like (from a map exploring standpoint).

 

WoW had loading scenes. When you went from one area to the next it loaded. When you entered a dungeon it loaded. when you took an airship it loaded.

But, each scene was usually massive, and pre-loaded/saved on your computer, the only info it had to transfer was character locations once you got close enough.

I completely agree with you on the overland map just a travel mechanic. That is what really messes with it. Your adventure stops once you leave a hex, and doesn't start again till you load another hex. instead of being adventuring transitions, it's a stop/start of adventuring. From the RTX demo last July they had adventuring in the overland map, then the scrapped it for this before we ever got a chance to experience it.

 

I wonder if we would be able to load (in the background) surrounding hex scenes so I could walk from one to the other.

 

How would it know what to load till you got there? It might be a fresh scene(no players) or it might be one with other players already in it. I'm still a little fuzzy on how much is static and how much is dynamic that it loads. but objects besides players visible to all is one thing that those other games don't have that aren't always part of the scene (player placed items).

 

But that would be true crowd sourcing....

 

I think it would be great to be able to walk from one hex to another without having to use the map. I wouldn't even mind a loading screen between hexes. Then if I wanted to get somewhere faster, I could zoom out to the overland map and hop from one hex to another.

I'm concerned about the current state too because it doesn't feel like adventuring in past ultima's felt, but I know they are not done with it. I will patiently await it's next incarnation next month.

 

They really need to address this....they have to notice many people are upset.

 

This was said in one of the past Friday Q/A.

Question: Will there be unique scenes for every single hex on the map? Or will there be only a finite number of variations per biome type (forest, desert, swamp, etc) and you randomly get one of those scenes whenever you double click on the hex for that type? If finite, how many variations can we expect per biome type?
For launch of Episode 1 we do not plan on making a unique scene for every single hex. The bulk of our world building time will be spent on maps that are part of the main storyline and towns. The way it will work is that we will build up a library of maps for each hex type (forest, desert, swamp, road, hills, coastline, etc.). Some will be completely different from each other while others will just be variations from a base. We will then associate each hex with one of those maps so each time you go to that hex it will be a consistently the same map versus random variation of the actual map. Otherwise it wouldn’t feel like a real world. We will however randomize content on the map each time it is entered for the first time. The content we plan to randomize will be world state (fires, sieges, riots, rainstorm, migrations, etc.), resources, creatures, quests, etc.
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So it sounds like we will definitely get a lot more variety. I definitely agree though with the OP what we see on the overland map needs to match what we see when we enter the hex itself.

 

Agreed this has become a huge issue and they really need to address it.

 

The longer they leave it the bigger it gets...it's weird because they are usually so good at answering things.

 

Great points and thoughts, but I do want to specify that what you are advocating for with an animated/more detailed "Map" view, is essentially what everyone wanted in the original "World" view. If you add more animations and textures you no longer have a map. I personally want a map, but as a map, for cartography, and think the current map would work great for that.

But, we were sold on a 3d world view, not a map, for world travel/navigation. As well as a dual scale world. It is not a dual scale world if you are transversing mono scale instances, and a cloth map world.

 

No no, I never said additional textures. I said tighten up what they have now. I like the direction of the map style. They can add all of the wonderful items that they've shown previously in the demos and still keep this art style. Standups don't need to be just 2 dimensional and still keep the same aesthetic.

But yes, I AM advocating more of what they had shown previously, but functionally, not the art style. Because frankly if what they had shown in the demos was in fact real and not an elaborate, hard-baked demonstration (I don't care what people think, I've seen VERY similar work done professionally with a script in place but then played off as "freeform" to sell an idea) then the work on the functionality is already there. All they've done is an art asset swap.
Period.
So all the mechanics SHOULD still be there. They just have them turned off in the test builds we've played with so far.
Unless they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater... But that just doesn't make ANY sense fiscally, and time management-wise.

The crux with everyone saying we're not getting a 3D world is that it just isn't true, it's most definitely is a 3D world.... Just not the type of realistically rendered 3D world you were hoping for but a far more stylized one.

Just as an aside, where is the OV/M and the world itself referenced as a "dual scale world"? I don't recall hearing it called that... please point me in the proper direction!

 

Dont know what OV/M is.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/14/4102986/shroud-of-the-avatar-update-explains-dual-scale-map-system

The dual scale map was described within week 1 of the KS and prevalent in subsequent KS updates and forum discussions.

If you are confusing map with world, don't, as dual scale was the key phrase used throughout and described exactly as a living, zoomed out scale of the zoomed in scale of the hex(es)

 

@Cir
I am ready.
The map is on my fansite now.

Klick "Scenes" for the hexmap and than on a hex at the side legend for more information.

 

I defined it myself as the "Overhead View/Map (OV/M)" as everyone has been calling what we have now with the various names... Or don't have depending on your point of view.

The first thing to note is that Chris refers to the dual scales as "Maps" throughout the video.... Overworld, Overland, Dual Scale etc..... but always with the nomenclature "Map" attached.
Chris then goes into how having the dual scale will make it easier to insert new content in various parts of the land. Pretty straight forward and something that both sides agree with.
At the 4:29 mark Chris points out that the devs ARE considering the OV/M as a pseudo-fast travel system.

Nowhere in that video does Chris call it a "dual scale world".

It the 3 month demo RG narrates...
...

Right at the :54 mark RG refers to it as the "Outdoor Map, the Overland Map". And sorry RG, quite a few of the maps we were able to explore this last round were nowhere NEAR a kilometer per side... some of the rolling hills maps were nothing other than a small channel with a small amount of land open on either side of the road.
At the 2:40 mark RG once again calls it the "Outdoor Map". I DO notice however that the movement controls are most DEFINITELY looking like WASD movement. The avatar clearly walks a curved path.
We see the OV/M again at the 7:39 mark but RG does not reference it.
And that's all we see or hear of it for the rest of that video.

Now in this version...


which is the RTX demo itself, is where all of this confusion really stems from I think.
• At the 22:26 mark I believe Chris (?) makes the comment "One of the first things you shoot for in games is trying to set a visual bar for the game..." and then RG steps over him and discusses how the demo for the kickstarter videos was COTS art assets and not things made specifically for SotA, but what they're seeing in the RTX demo is the beginning of that effort, and then makes the comment "But as a general rule this is the final form of the game". <-- We'll come back to this in a bit
• At 22:55 RG refers to the system as a "Two-Scale Map".
• At 23:00 it's the "Outdoor Map". If you watch the animals and creatures shown on the OV/M they are all clearly running/walking/flying in patterns. You're able to easily follow the pattern of the wolves that move from one cluster of trees to another along the same path, I got a count of 3 times for the wolf closest to the town and avatar. The birds flying in and out of the trees are also running a pattern from one hex to another. Same thing with the gypsy carts we see on the roads. We see them go back and forth a few times along the same path.
• At 24:56 RG calls being able to jump directly to the OV/M a "Cheat"... which makes me think we may NOT get that functionality now.... Hmmm.
• Movement speeds will vary based on terrain... something I've seen some people complain about, but it's been in the system since the beginning.
• Fixed POIs- cities, dungeons etc.; Mobile POIs like the animals; random encounters.
• At 27:10 Chris discusses how Dom Jon's (sp?) video had a large influence on the OV/M and how things are handled there.

Clearly the Devs have HAD the additional functionality such as rotate, and WASD movement, and the supposed random POIs and encounters previously, so in a logical and cost effective world, the only conclusion is that they've just been turned off in these most recent test builds. All of that stuff should still be possible.

To go back to the elephant in the room, when RG says "But as a general rule this is the final form of the game" I believe that RG is referring to the functionality. Others have taken a different meaning though and believe RG means the visuals. But we know that the art isn't final as it's said right in the beginning that what we're seeing is only a small amount of art created for SotA, the rest being "cheated" from the COTS art from the initial KS demo.

So THAT is where I think RG needs to clearly explain what was meant and give a better explanation to the group as to why the changes were made.

hopefully this covered both sides of the fence pretty well....

 

In that video Lord B have just level 3, not that strong.XD The overland map there was great.

Edit: I didnt saw that video in months... it have a lot of weird buildings in Owl´s Head.

 

Thank you Senash Kasigal. I'll inform you when I have updated my homepage.

 

I feel like too much attention is going to be put on "getting the graphics up to par with recent games"...

As if they weren't waiting around the corner with the next level dynamic world articulation systems that will make us look like noobs anyways ? We have to see longer term implications of such a drastic turn...

There is nothing new under the sun... I would rather have ultima type graphics in the hexes and awesome amazing overland view and map functions / mini games.

We're not a bunch of kids you can impress with glitter, in my humble opinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

The problem with the term dual scale MAP is that it implies that there are two MAPS, so the area view would have to be a map, too... So, the term in it self is misleading and therefore opens up room for interpretation.
If this is called a dual scale map and the area view is not a map, then why does the overland view have to be a map?

 

Some strange stuff going on...