Overland Map Changes

It is a single player game, with added scalable multi player interaction, and a full story to boot. =)

 

This! ^^^

 

I'm liking the current map, I'd hate to have the dev team working on a 3d map where you can walk around and look. Instead we've got a map which we use to navigate between places and then go explore the areas with the ability to do gathering, fighting etc. It's not immersion breaking to me, it's a map I follow while travelling. With random encounters and visual markers and cues on the map it's all I need.

 

Why would you hate to have the dev team working on a 3d map where you can walk around and look? Are you against exploration in an RPG? Do you hate walking around in Britannia in Ultima 6 oder 7, too? Or walking around in Azeroth in WoW?

And right now there has been no word of random encounters etc. Right now, according to Chris the map is meant to move your marker from point A to point B, nothing more. The devs need to clarify if they plan for more functionality for the map and tell us what they plan for the map or if this is all that we would get.

 

I'd much rather have a mono-scale map that I can explore and retain the current paper style map as a means for fast travel. The system as it is now lacks both immersion and exploration and it doesn't seem to be getting better.

Invisible walls and out of reach places are going to feature strongly in the future of the current system.

 

Good comparison, but a little misleading/misunderstood. People didn't donate millions of dollars up front to a game with certain expectations they were told/shown by the dev. team about with Zelda.

Zelda has also been bashed pretty hard with all there design choices since OoT, which I personally think still has nothing on ALttP, and no rendition since ALttP has come close to providing the same level of play, feeling, and environment it had. You can argue that Nintendo is still making money off the series, but it's undeniable the that gaming industry as a whole is loosing it's original fan base that fell in love with original games due to cheap/quick knock off sequels, and once the loyal fan base is all gone the gaming industry is gonna crash hard. Due to the shallow minded/lack of any attention span current generations flooding the market. They push sales high at the release of something new, but drop like flies as soon as the next new *Shiny* thing is out.

 

I'm not against exploration, I just think we can explore the hexes and be able to do something simultaneously. The features we'd have with a 3d map just don't add so much to my experience. The zoomed out overland map works in many games of different genres, but I'm not convinced we need it in SoTA. Having two different 3-d views isn't just necessary to me.

I don't think the idea of random encounters has been discarded, I believe we're getting those anyway. I'm just focused on exploring inside the hexes, not the map. A zoomed out 3d view is something completely different. If something happened, the action would take place inside the hex anyway. However I think we need more visuals cues on the map, for example the map could show whereabouts different beasts or creatures dwell. And I'm quite sure they will improve the current map.

 

May I use your map for my Ultima Homepage? Of course I would mention that the map is your work and erect a link to your homepage as well.

 

The map isnt yet on my fansite.
After R5 i will include this map.
But sure, no problem.

 

It does, but the tile vs. hex scale is different. The world map of U4 allowed for 256x256 tiles. The world map of Novia was 64x64 hexes but was doubled to 128x128 as part of the stretch goal. The Hidden Vale itself is tiny, with an eyeball estimate of 16x25 hexes at most.

 

Hoo Boy!

That took a while to get through. Silly work keeping me too busy to stay as informed this release. This will be a little long but please stay with me here...

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Devs CLEARLY need to explain the reasoning behind all of this. I see it in post after post... One side sees it as the Overhead View while the other side sees it as the Overhead Map. By what Darkstarr mentioned quite a while ago they thought of it as merely a Map, only shown with 3D meshes representing various aspects of things on the map. Others however feel that it should be a View, having as much exploration and interaction potential as what we get from inside hexes themselves. So where did the disconnect happen?

When you get down to the actual Overhead View/Map (OV/M) itself NOTHING is different functionally from what we saw in the demos. The ONLY difference is the art assets.
Yes, I can hear people screaming "But there are functional differences!", well, actually no, they're just not implemented in the version we get to play or are not turned on. Do you honestly think they would just scrap ALL of the functional work they had put into the OV/M previous to R4?? Of course not, they merely have left things turned off, or just commented the code out for various functions of the current public test build.

• Dynamic Encounters- the Devs have mentioned that these things have been planned from the beginning, changing the art wouldn't get rid of them.
• Rotation and Angle- They've had Pan and Zoom, I seriously doubt they'll leave those turned off next round, but it might be R7 before we see them. The Devs don't want us seeing the mainland yet, so that could easily explain why they're keeping those turned off.
• Avatar movement- This has changed VISUALLY a little... in one video we're shown an avatar that moves just as our current chess piece does, a Step-Step movement from one hex to another. In another we see an avatar (not a chess piece) that seems to move more fluidly, but this could have been a tweak in the speed and animation of the avatar, not a change in the function of the avatar itself. It's always been from hex to hex.
• Living World- animals and creatures roaming the world, etc.. We haven't seen this yet in the R4+ OV/M. The Devs haven't said they've been eliminated at all, we just haven't seen it implemented. They were there in the demo, so why would everyone assume that the devs would just strike the feature completely?

Mishri is correct though, there DOES need to be some additional functions added into or BACK into the OV/M.
• WASD movement would GREATLY help reduce the Step-Step-Step feel the chess piece currently has. The function obviously would be the same, but using the WASD keys would help make movement feel more organic and not so mechanical.
• Inventory, Character, Chat, Skills, Journal, etc. should ALL be accessible while in the OV/M. Once PvP is active it will be a MUST to be able to change my gear according to where I'm headed BEFORE I get there. Being able to communicate such a move and what to expect to my party members is also paramount. Same thing with my skills in my deck... You get the idea.

Visually there's a lot of room to play here. I like the premise of the new style. I do agree with others that it needs to be cleaned up some...
• It's clear that the art from the map of Novia was used for the basis of what's currently on the R4+OV/M. They can tighten it up so the art comes across more clean and purposeful, rather than looking like they just pulled it off a Photoshop layer from the original map.
• Same thing specifically with the towns, villages and cities. Come up with specific iconography for the 3 types, and use them. It's what's done with all real world maps. Add one for capitals as well... We know you're going to want the capitals to stand out . There could also be ones developed for locations that have been overtaken by the elves or ransacked or things like that. Darkstarr mentioned villages/towns/cities being on fire... that would work great with animations (see my comments about animations below).
• The cardboard standups work to some extent, but they'll fall flat (ha ha!) when the Devs turn rotate and angles back on. You can build the assets out in 3D and still have the same feel as the cardboard cutouts. Come up with art guidelines and ask the community for help. This could be a GREAT community outreach project like what's going on with The Next Great Starship in Star Citizen... just don't try to turn it into a reality show!!
• The addition of the animations are definitely in the right direction, but need to be taken up several notches. More clouds, more waves, more things like the windmills going on. I know when the devs turn things like the wandering creatures and animals back on that'll help some, as well as the dynamic encounters, but one of the largest issues that Darkmoon and others have is that the world is just to static. Animate the flags flying on the spires of the town icons, that ransacked village is on fire so show the fires flickering, the smoke billowing... Go crazy!!

The ONE thing that I REALLY hope the Devs do reconsider however is the chess piece that's meant to represent our avatar. I understand the want to have the Heraldic Arms of the player shown, I like the idea quite a bit myself, however not everyone will have Arms, or care to. Please return to an animated avatar, one that's carrying a standard so the player's Arms could be placed on the standard as you want to do. Hopefully this would also help lessen the disconnect some players are feeling a little. Teammate's markers wouldn't need to be animated avatars (or would they?) so the devs could possibly use the current icon to mark their locations on the map.

Thanks for sticking in there till the end, hopefully I didn't have anyone gnashing at the bit too much! I'm sure I've missed some points but that's what replies are for

 

Great post Aegis. Anway I still dont like the map. XD

 

This goes back to my idea where they should allow you to "set up camp" on the overworld map...to do all these things. One, it keeps it all in one area and thematic. Two, it also allowsfor great roleplaying.

What I suggested before was that when you set up camp in a hex other players will see a single campfire icon in that hex...if a player clicks on that icon it will show all the camps setup in the hex(cuts down clutter) and can choose to visit that camp(or they could have various protections against this). This way to can gather your party so to speak. Also, these can be instances.

Just an idea.

 

One thing that is definitely different is the atmosphere:
Some may disagree but the 3D map created the atmsophere of this being a living world with realistic looking forests, rivers etc. The cloth map creates the atmosphere of looking at a map.

Also we need to know what all of those animated elements like animals, gypsy wagons and the dragon etc. will look like on the cloth map - if they will be integrated again. And it could mean some additional work to create those assets so that they fit with the style of the cloth map whereas they already have those 3D models in the game for them to use on a 3D overland map/view. I think that creating an animated paper dragon that doesn't look cheesy and fits the style is not that easy.

I still assume the change to the new style was made due to time reasons. They wanted to create a map that was easy and fast to create and would just be a means for travel. With such a cloth/paper map there would be no need for additional elements like animals etc. which would free them up much time for other things. That is my opinion. And now they are in a situation in which they have to decide what to do:

Create more assets and maybe more functionality for the new map as well as pretty it up -> which would mean more work and the map being not ready as fast as they would have liked as well as additional work they already had done for the 3D map

Return to the old 3D view and pretty it up -> more work

Keep the cloth map as it is -> Shitstorm

 

Well, since the devs were clearly talking about 'dual scale' and not just some 'map' this is what many people expected it to be: a fully functional, playable world albeit in two different scales. Obviously moving your cursor around a plain map to shortcut to the points of interest is not exactly a rewarding experience in an RPG. Right now the game is actually a set of seperate mono-scale areas, fenced in by invisible barrriers. It is not a dual scale system at all.
Ideally there should be a large scale version of the world where everything is displayed in miniature like in a birdseye view (maybe hidden as long as not yet explored) and a small scale version where the player will be automatically zoomed in when he enters specific places and zoomed out when leaving. But he must always be aware of his actual location, his immediate surroundings, whats happening nearby etc. Ideally he should be able to switch to either view as he sees fit. The large scale has to be so much more than just a plain map to move some icon around. It should be the core of the game where the player will spend significant amounts of time. And no this is not just a matter of graphical presentation but actual game mechanics.

 

Where as in general I am very happy with the direction things are going, I can't help but be worried about the designs of the individual instances. It could be that this gets addressed in the future, but I'd rather say this now rather than wait and find it too late.

I'm going list my worries in bullet point for simplicity.

• Accuracy: In some instances I visited, I could clearly see mountains in the distance, where as the overland map clearly shows there are no mountains in that direction. Also, I visited what I thought would be swampland, only to find myself in a mountain scene. The scenes really need to have a good level of accuracy in correlation to the overworld map. A T junction road on the map needs to be a T Junction. If I enter a scene with a mountain to the north, I need to be able to see a mountain in the north.
• Size: I love exploring, and I love being able to lose myself. Some of the scenes still feel a little small for my liking, for example the mountain scene.
• Variety / Uniqueness: I understand there is a possible goal of making resource scenes via procedural generation. But, how unique will these scenes really be? If I enter into a mountain scene, will I instantly know that in this instance will be specific scenery, creatures, resources, and nothing more? The ability to explore and find interesting things that I've not seen before is important to me.
• Direction Matters: If I want to get out of a scene, at present I pretty much have to just run in any direction til I find the edge. I feel that direction needs to matter more. Maybe if some areas of the map were only accessible by exiting a scene at the correct exit, i would be a little happier.

I know I'll probably think of a ton of other points the moment I complete this post, but this at least gives a starter to my thoughts.

 

I totally agree with you Myoryn_Craysley ,

Seeing that this is our first real encounter with being able to explore, I can forgive many things about the map... because it's an infant alpha map...
My guess is that we got to use it so we could checkout some of the other things like the dungeons and we had to have some way to get there.
Your comments through your observations are very precise and I can see that you're a true adventure & exploring player.
I hope to read many more of your comments in the future and hope that we can all take such a healthy look in considerations of our map design.
Your Fan Happy Club Reader,
~Time Lord~

Oh and PS) I'll be following you if you don't mind

 

Right now there is only 10 scenes including towns, caves and dungeons. So right now there is too few scenes to make them fit properly with their surroundings and once we start to get more scenes I believe that we will get a more accurate reference between scenes and the map.

 

Correct; the map is currently hacked together using available scenes. More will certainly come down the pipe and breathe more life into the land.

 

I still think they should have a competition to get us backers to design hexes....I'm sure there are a few guys and gals out here who can make some pretty nice generic areas.