Population Concerns

Agreed. I know I keep coming back to this with regard to individual systems, eg: combat, crafting, but even on a wider scale... did no one sit down with a whiteboard and sort of think what would work, what would be fun, etc?

Because, as a consumer of the game, it feels like a whole lot of stuff, pushed together, with no thought about it being cohesive and -- worse -- it still feels like hit-and-miss, let's-see-if-this-works development, even now it's persistent.

 

It feels like cargo cult programming, good game X has a crafting system like this so if we have the same we'll be good too, repeat with a different game for each system and blend throughly with the desires of your top spenders.

 

Complaining about this game is more like telling someone you need to press 200kg and they send you a little girl and she only wants you to buy fancy dresses for her in an Addon Store.

 

Quite possibly that was the thinking (rather than any sort of original brainstorming; the type of which is creating MMOs like Chronicles of Elyria), but I don't think it's even copied what existing games have done well, if I'm honest.

As much as people who like the game hate hearing this, I just don't see originality. I just don't see thought. I see very basic MMO tropes, in a clunky engine that they're still trying to work out despite no more game wipes. It's scary.

 

What I don't see is what was promised in the kickstarter. That's what is getting to me.

This game was extremely fun to play in Release 16. I saw what looked like was going to be an amazing experience and the possibilities of complexity akin to SWG sandbox! The game was very playable already. I could play the way I was accustomed to in SWG (and other games I've played over the years that included 3D controls for mouse and WASD).

• What I read on the kickstarter really grabbed my attention so I pledged.
• At first the deck system did not strike me as good or innovative, but I liked the nod to the U4 gypsy cards. After a bit I got used to it and even got to where I enjoyed how it adds some randomness to combat and promised to remove the power gamer combo of attacks that work best which always comes up in MMOs. @Knight Commander Tyncale - if you want skills at the beginning of a fight you have to unlock all but a slot or two on the hotbar. The start with cooldown is punishment for choosing to lock most or all of your slots down. You also pay more focus for each skill you have locked. This was intentional as a way to prevent us all just key mashing our favorite combos to 1337 killz our pownets.
• The graphics were fine. I still am looking for animations that rival the moves in SWG during combat.
• Dungeon exploring was fun. Yet, somehow the existing ones just seemed small compared to how they felt in Ultima IV-V.
• I liked the fact that we can place decorations outside, but couldn't wrap my head around not being able to place a house where you want it on the lot - why does it have to be in the midde? But, hey.... real housing again where I can decorate like I did in SWG! Made some fun and interesting things in that game. Oh? No? I can't move it anywhere I want in my house? Well, maybe I can put this candle on this window ledge? Nope. Perhaps I can push it up the wall and rotate it on it's side? Nope. Dangit?! Really? Why not? I could move anything in any of the major axis directions in SWG and even rotate the item on two axis. Maybe that will come in time here!
• Discovered the pet system and liked it enough to make it my concentration for a while around R18. Wrote up a bunch of findings regarding it and even spent hours committing Avartarcide to level up in the skills. Gave a bunch of feedback and pointed out the punishing aspects of the system including the unnecessary permadeath (the pets are SUPPOSED to run away from near fatal battles, not die!) and the system that made the pet go away if you zoned (glad that is gone). Really started thinking back to how great the original creature handler system was in SWG and looked forward to the progress in SOTA.
• The overworld had speed reduction if you didn't stay on the beaten path! Perfect Ultima nod! Loved it.

After a couple months I decided to go Knight level - so started payments.

• Shortly after I obtained that pledge they released the targeting fix. Yuck, reticle. Couldn't hit what I wanted most of the time. Could not stand firing off a spell and calling yet another creature from well outside of my current fight. Punishment.
• Then as they fixed the targeting fix they futzed with the mouse buttons used in different "modes". I was glad to see I could just use right-click to move in mouse look mode. Very cool. But, I was already used to and appreciated cursor mode so I could click on my cards on the hot bar. So, I stuck to left+right click to move. But now when I'm dropped in combat I can't move unless I use the middle mouse button or turn on auto-attack which for some ridiculous reason turns off between each battle now. Really?
• I love the guild I'm in. They are great bunch of folks - like to help each other, enjoy working together, and share readily. I love the town my Knight home is in. But I don't feel much like logging in.

Why don't I want to login?

1. Clunky controls for mouse movement. This is absolutely #1 as I need to be able to move at the second I need to move in combat not figure out why I can't and correct for it. I like fighting in near-loss situations and this had me feeling stuck at times I needed to move.
2. No high-end content that needs group dynamics or tactics. I'm sure that will come eventually and I'm actually not concerned here - but it is what drives me to login and get with friends and do things!
3. Grinding? Really? That's what leveling is right now. Punishment. What happened to "A fantasy role-playing game that will focus more on player choices and discovery than on level grinding."
4. Don't want to determine a skill "build" yet as they are tweaking systems and I'd rather play in a more stable environment. But then what MMO ever stabilizes skills? Skill "balancing" will go on forever and ever unless the mindset is eventually abandoned. That is the ONLY solution to balancing - get it okay and leave it alone.

What do I want to see?

• Shroud of the Avatar is infused with rich storylines, deeply integrated into game play, developed by Best Selling Author Tracy Hickman and RPG legend Richard Garriott.
• Players will adventure in an interactive world where their choices have consequences, ethical paradoxes give them pause, and they play a vital part in weaving their own story into the immersive world and lore surrounding them.
• Shroud of the Avatar is a Selective Multiplayer game, allowing players to choose how they want to play! Whether in Single-Player Offline mode or any of three online modes, the main quest line will provide greater than 40 hours of focused, story driven content.
• Shroud of the Avatar can be played as an offline DRM free solo experience or online, where our servers will enable player to player transactions, group finding, patching, streaming of dynamic content, and exploit prevention.
• Built using the Unity Game Engine, Shroud of the Avatar will support Win/Mac/Linux for official launch.
• Players can specialize in a wide range of combat and non-combat skills, provided by a robust, classless skill system, and full-featured crafting and housing mechanics. Play the way you want to play, molding your character into the hero, anti-hero, or artisan you want to be!
• Shroud of the Avatar: Forsaken Virtue is the first of a 5 game series of full-length, stand-alone games (each using the same game system), referred to as Episodes 1 through 5. Estimated availability of Episode 1, Forsaken Virtues, is October 2014, with Episodes 2 through 5 estimated for subsequent yearly releases.
• Shroud of the Avatar is a “buy-to-play” game that, once purchased, does not require a subscription to play!

Green higlights = uhm...not really. Concerned here, very concerned.
Gold highlights = hitting it pretty dang good!
Normal text = okay or not concerned about.

As has been pointed out in the thread exactly one bullet is being hit perfectly and yes it is the areas that can help raise funds.

 

Lets say Unity is terrible engine because I don't like how they are working with a game made by Unity! ...hilarious.

How can you say something like "in a clunky engine that they're still trying to work" and try to be objetive with your arguments?

What an unfair way to discredite an engine and the work they are doing using Unity. Nobody with some kind of knowledge about Unity can't take your words seriously, believe me, no one. You can disagree with some of their game design decision, you can say what you dont like, but saying these nonsense words I can't take you seriously anymore.

This is sadly the common way to talk about video games nowadays. Thanks god I'm not in the same boat.

 

Are you saying it's now common for people to say what they think rather than... I dunno... pretending they like something just so they don't offend anybody or feel the odd person out?

If so, then I think that's great. We won't get anywhere in this community while people have their, "Port can do no wrong..." or, "This is kinda weird, but it's only alpha..." glasses on.

 

Even when you think what you are saying is true and right, you should take a look around you to see that there are better, and more respectful, ways to talk about others work.

If you go back you will realize that I never told you that you are wrong thinking; "this game is going bad, or I dont like this". All I told you is about how you approach these sentences and arguments.

You can't go and say "in a clunky engine that they're still trying to work", because you are directly discrediting the work behind scene. At the moment you are doing that, you can't expect others takes you seriously.

Bluefire put his impressions here in a fair way imho, just an example of many.

That's all basically.

 

Maybe there are. But to discount everything I say, as if it's not happening, just because you -- personally -- don't like the way I said it is... well, it's a bit precious. It doesn't help the discussion at all.

You don't control how I express myself, any more than I could seek to control how you express yourself. If you want to talk respect, it starts there, ie: by not demanding people change to suit a personal whim.

 

Nobody forced you to do that, so take it easy and try to understand things as we talk. I told you that your words were really unfortunate, and not just in one of your post (I guess thats your way of talk and evaluate a game).

Ofc nobody will cut your wings here, but don't expect to see always people agreeing with you, specially when you say things like "they are trying to work with a clunky engine". Sounds terrible tbh from an objective point of view.

 

Games only get one launch. Change the terminology all you want. There needed to be more on the bone when persistence started.

Population always decreases after a launch. It's expected. Wasn't a huge player base to begin with. Maybe they'll come back with a future update, but probably not.

Need a new hook to get people involved when the game "officially" launches, as that'll be the last PR push the game gets. Most websites, steam, blogs, and streamers list the game as launched when persistence started.

The pre-release era of games is over. Thank god. Can write up all you want about how the game is a work in progress, not officially launched, etc. but it means nothing these days. If you're taking money and done wiping, you've launched.

Good luck, SOTA. Hopefully it turns this around before the backers that have spent absurd amounts of money on this game finally tap out.

 

Agreed. When people argue that point I can never be sure if they are trying to be super literal, or do actually understand the point being made, but know the game isn't very good, so want to retain that, "It's not released..." buffer.

 

@Canterbury honestly, both.

A lot of people paid [way too much] money for this game. They'll cling to their investment - AS THEY SHOULD. There's hope here, and there's a foundation that I think is promising - I wouldn't have written huge guides for the games a few months ago if I didn't.

Their biggest problem right now is picking who to make happy. We're past the point where keeping the playerbase content is possible at all aspects. Those that want solo play/questing, or crafting, grinding, exploring, or pvping, all these groups need some love to make happy - and only a few of them can be made more content at once.

They'll have to choose how to support all of these player types (and many others), and understand the cost of supporting some of them means losing others. Lots of planning and very long days are ahead for this team, but I think they've got what they need to make it work. The only question is will they make it work, and how soon? Time is working against them now. Holiday season brings sales and more games, SOTA can't and won't compete with a single one of them.

When the dust clears after the holidays, will SOTA be able to bring players back and fill the void left once the binge xmas-season gaming subsides? Who knows. But if it's not turned around by Feb next year, with huge increases in population and the annoying, game-affecting bugs squashed, it's probably over.

Good luck, team. I have faith.

 

The streetlamps had bugs flying around them before. In fact, it looked a lot better and more convincing. The current implementation just looks like bad particle animation to me. As for the dynamic lighting, it's completely broken in the Linux client (Mac too, I believe) and the devs don't seem too hot to fix it.

The graphics in R33 were far superior.

 

I no longer do.

I'm playing EQ again on a Time Locked Progression server waiting for Pantheon Alpha. If Pantheon fails, I'll continue on EQ TLP.
Seriously? A 17 year old game is more fun than Shroud. Every patch in Shroud makes it less fun. Every feature added, less fun, more punitive.

I might login again 5 months from now to refresh my house. If I remember. I probably won't care enough.

 

guess i'll finally chime in..

i have no concerns about population with regards to the game. the devs are fluid enough to understand the demands and will adjust server settings accordingly to suit their wants and needs. - note that i did not say our wants or our needs.

 

This ^^^

There are the single player &multiplayer advocates, PvE & PvP, crafting & adventuring (it should be possible for crafting specialists to stay mostly on their home village with raw materials supplied by others), melee & magic etc. Balancing these out means major tweaks to the economy, PvP & PvE rewards , combat & crafting and many others. Some areas need to be prioritized first otherwise the work will never be done. And at the same time no side ahould be feeling left out in the cold.

I've been active here since R4 and from that perspective have seen many major improvements to the gameplay, graphics and other major facets in SOTA. The reason it feels like a mess is that all these haven't been bound yet into a truly cohesive whole - and this requires the implrmentation of a complete storyline relevant to both singleplayers and multiplayers.

Having already mostly abandoned one major kickstarter project many, many times larger than SOTA I'm not feeling inclined to abandon another project so close to my heart. As long as Port keeps delivering (and they have - on a monthly schedule) I'll be here.

 

Remember when they said they wouldn't do horrible garish or neon colours like afflicted late-UO? And micro-transactions? And would aim for a minimalist HUD?

I agree with you. I've been here from the start and I've seen all the improvements too. There is some great stuff in SotA. I could name a bunch of things but they are overshadowed by some big issues. IFor example I think the PoT and Housing system is really well done - but it should have come AFTER good gameplay was implemented. Mob grinding is not fun. 30 trees to make a chair is not fun.

But bigger turn-offs for prospective players are the add-on store (and the super high prices), "rare housing" (limited housing is by design but most of the development and polish seems to have been sunk into it), and - this is a big one - the rampant Portalarium-endorsed RMT. People complain that the economy in the game currently is broken or non-existent. It's not - it's just an RMT economy. Go look at the Marketplace forum.

 

Well said, Ashlynn. There are aspects of SotA which are quite alright. Housing, for example, might be priced ridiculously and I'm shocked how many people fall for it, but its implementation in the game is done quite well.

But for every bit where someone, even as jaded as myself, can say "credit where credit's due", and give it some praise, there's still plenty of stuff -- stuff that should never have been done badly in the first place -- that's just horrible.

 

I had to turn to the SOTA seller market to get enough wood to get our POT library in time for Xmas. It was the only viable option since I'm not high level enough to grind the necessary amount of trees in time for the construction of furniture, bookshelves and other wood based infrastructure. Since we have a small active population I didn't want to bother my neighbors either at this point since they have enough on their hands already providing the other facilities in the POT.

I'm grateful that the market is there though I draw the line at buying ingame gold, experience and other things that I feel my avatar needs to experience directly. COTOS I use solely for paying the library rent - my personal residence uses a tax free row lot deed.

I enjoyed the personal interaction with the seller to get my wood supply. It was direct and very personal compared to dealing with NPC vendors. If players want their store to thrive, they need to be more on premise or on forum to establish good relationships with their customers - just like the real world.

That RMT transactions have a negative side effect on the ingame economic system I have no doubt. The root cause though imho for the current economic malaise is that the foundational mechanics that's supposed to drive the economy is still borked to some degree. Each town for example should really have a central public market place available to anybody whose willing to pay the rent and put up a stall (no residences allowed). This will level the playing field somewhat so that the quality of the goods and not the houses is what draws the customers in.

The current store setup that @Ihuma & @Bamboozle is actually a rough prototype of the public market idea. Starting investment is small (you just need a chest) and new avatars get access to a prime spot in Owl's head with a lot of foot traffic. Of course , there has to be an element of trust for this to work but thats true of nearl every RL store or market.

Provide avenues where less wealthy avatars can compete with more wealthy ones and we'll see the economy boom - and then more players will come in. What anyone wants is just a fair chance of getting a piece of the economic pie.

I think it's obvious at this point that I'm also conflicted about the situation to be honest.