PVP and looting people

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Xee, Nov 6, 2019.

  1. Restless

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    @kaeshiva I agree with pvprs not at least being treated equally and with attenuation being removed from pvp farming zones, such as the new Tartarus PvP maze and The Fall. Discriminating against pvprs is not a good thing for growth of the game population.

    A point I would like to make is that there already are no loot pvp player owned towns. How many people are flocking there to pvp? How many people go to Obsidian Trials to have their hard earned skills nerfed and no loot? How many go to OT just for the vanity rewards? The answer to all of these is none. Let's not forget that there is also the option to duel and agree to terms prior. If there is no agreement, just decline the duel.

    The current population who do not want to pvp, do not go areas deemed "fair" by them, maybe once every other blue moon. People work hard for their experience, skills, gear and builds. This is the reason we are playing an MMO not COD.

    Another point is that 99% of the current population does not want to PvP. Which is completely fine. Great even, play your sandbox MMO how you would like! But for growth of the game, to introduce new population, it has been proven that the worse PvPrs are treated, the more game population is declining - even with 2x exp gain, 2x attenuation cap (which atten was supposed to be removed completely, this was only supposed to be a test for 2x cap), big coto giveaways on streams, more streamers, cotos going on sale, archery being left extremely op for 6+months, crafting rerolls, the list goes on.

    Please at least treat PvPrs as good as PvErs. People competing with each other will drive crafting, artifact farming, reg farming, and the economy as a whole - if it is allowed by game mechanics.
     
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  2. kaeshiva

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    Exactly - you'll notice I don't mention capping skills, because I don't agree with it. I think if you've put in the time you deserve the edge it gives you, especially due to the way our diminishing returns system works. But the reality of this is we have a game in which someone can invest months/years getting high skills and crazy gear which tends to imbalance the pvp field so some prefer this as an option so lower levels can reasonably compete.

    However, the reason why, at least I personally, do not go to the current "fair" areas is because there's no reason to. If I am a primarily pve player / crafter, what possible reason could I have to go to a Pvp town, even if loot is off? There's nothing to draw me there, unless there's an event or something. Removing the blockers is only half the battle, the other half is there needs to be a reason for people to bother. I could tell you we're going to be chasing cats around my town this evening and even if you wouldn't lose anything, that doesn't mean you're going to want to show up.

    Part of "playing your sandbox mmo how you would like" means being able to do so free from interference and grief.
    There's a difference between not wanting to PvP, and not wanting to PvP in SotA.

    Obsidian trials was a good step in the right direction, but the whole "one last man standing gets a reward, and everyone else just wasted their time" combined with the copious amount of stand-around-waiting and lack of a proper queue system, killed it. Unless you are capable of being the overall winner, there's simply no reason to go there - the cool stuff to earn required winning the entire event. And for most people, that's not achievable.

    I have had very enjoyable PvP in other games that were properly incentivized/rewarded WITHOUT being a free-for-all grief fest.
    The losses stung, but weren't devastating. Winning was fun, but didn't come at the expense of ruining someone else's fun.

    I think there's other factors affecting the population, but I fully agree that the state of PvP is definitely a factor. Because we have PvP:Consensual, open world, flag up and go at it PvP. And some people do it. And its not enough, or this conversation wouldn't keep coming up. Most people aren't interested in participating in the current systems. I am proposing instead of finding a way to force it on people who aren't interested, lets try to find a way to make it interesting. Lets give it a progression of its own. Lets create unique gear bonuses that require materials from pvp scenes or even require being crafted in pvp scenes at some look-over-your-shoulder crafting table. Right now, if you opt in to PvP, the only thing you're saying is "I want to kill people" and that's fine, if you're strong enough to kill people. If you aren't, you don't bother. Battlegrounds with multiple objectives and way to earn points, tokens, medals, stuff, etc. that isn't based completely on your kill count are great for this. Daily quests for the currency are a good option too. Some of those can be kill X players. Others can be deliver this, or run this, or collect this - all in a scene where pvp is possible/likely. You have to get people in there. Make those quests give GOOD exp. If someone wants to absolutely avoid pvp like the plague, XP can be gotten elsewhere. I've seen games where it was possible from like, level 10, to level up completely in PvP scenes and if that's what people like doing I think its great that its possible. I think having something like that here would go a long way toward appealing to a pvp crowd, the biggest problem is that it seems there's never anyone to fight, or the fights are always crazily one sided - which just makes some people avoid it even more.
     
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  3. Sara Dreygon

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    Who ended up buying this account?
     
  4. Restless

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    @kaeshiva I am glad to see we agree on many points. Hopefully some of the ideas in the pvp threads will materialize and bring in a lot of new players.
     
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  5. Lord Aventine

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    Maybe I am missing something here....

    But, it would seem that the following steps would be a wonderful way to integrate PVP with the game's existing Oracle's judgement, Avatar's path, Shardfalls, corpse looting, and guild ideas and systems:

    Step 1. Enable factions. Allow the Avatar to clearly choose between an Order or Chaos faction at the end of the Episode 1 story. A later Episode 2 story might allow for that to be changed.
    Step 2 Add clearer friction points. Place an NPC-PVE-mob-guarded flag or pylon in all Shardfall PVP zones that can be switched to Order or Chaos. Score based on which faction has the most active flags.
    Step 3. Offer faction leader buffs. Enable +25% PVP damage resistance, +25% crafting output, +25% PVE gold looting bonuses for the faction that has the most PVP zone flags active at any given time.
    Step 4. Offer faction leader rare drops. Add tiered rare/legendary item % drop chance bonuses for the leading faction when >75% of all Shardfall zones are flagged for one faction.
    Step 5. Offer faction laggard protection. Set the 'lootable corpse' setting for the lagging PVP faction to 'off', to reduce their 'fear' of reengaging in PVP to flip factions.
    Step 6. Make 'guild reputation' a thing. Base guild reputation (Order vs Chaos) on the majority Oracle faction participations of their membership (enables guild wars, causes guilds to pay attention to faction).
    Step 7. Sit back and watch what happens as suddenly the Oracle and path of the Avatar makes a difference.
     
  6. Fister Magee

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    If this were implemented in whole, I'd PVP in an instant. If it is too much at once, well, implement them anyway and remove things later if they seem too 'much' for the game... I'd rather they splurge on features (and take away some things later if necessary) rather than give us bit-by-bit, which has proven to frustrate the majority of us waiting for meaningful changes.
     
  7. Fister Magee

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    As for the experiment of 'no loot' pvp next month... why not put loot on a toggle and allow us to choose what style of PVP we want? Perhaps limit who you can attack if you are full loot or no loot? Or maybe, if you are full loot, and attack a noloot, that winner gets nothing (but show the nonloot winner what they'd have possibly won if they were fullloot), same with if a nonloot attacks a looter. As for similar loot preferences, then loot as specified (or don't). And be sure that looting has virtue consequences if you kill someone way weaker than you (and/or loot them), or are ganking near an entrance or spawn point.

    edit: I don't meant full loot, but the oracle loot system currently in use... but then again, why not allow a toggle for full loot vs oracle loot vs no loot?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  8. Sol Stormlin

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    How about a specific currency for pvpers? Like they did in UO with the faction system. You gained silver instead of gold, and you could buy special items from a faction merchant. Special armor, special dyes, special wearables, tattoos, pvp specific artifacts, etc.
     
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  9. Violet Ronso

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    Obsidian shards/fragments, been suggesting so for 2 years!
     
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  10. Restless

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    @Sol Stormlin I only played UO through T2A. When Rennaissance / trammel came, the magic was gone. So I don't have a reference. But as long as these items are not segregated, it sounds great! The big thing I've seen on the forums is that PvErs want PvP items segregated, as in, if PvErs can't get a certain item - PvPrs should not get it or should only apply to PvP. This goes back to the risk vs reward model. Some PvPrs take big risks on crafting gear that takes tens of millions of gold. Then to get no return on it if builds don't pan out and needing to spend another 1500 cotos to full respec. @Chris does a great job allowing people to 100% unlearn at big skill changes but it does not offset the gold cost of gear those skills are centered around when big changes come. (archery dex suits, light armor with the recent DS nerf) Experience is the currency of PvErs and gold / materials is the currency of crafters.

    To directly answer your question - yes, I think this would be great!

    @Lord Aventine Yes, yes, yes!!!!! Step 5 gave me a moment of pause, but the benefits of being the winner should easily offset this condition. Yes!
     
  11. Restless

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    I'd like to thank everyone involved in this thread. Everyone has been civilized and it seems as though everyone has a general sentiment that PvPrs being treated equally with PvE could further SOTA in population and as a whole make for a great game even better.
     
  12. eli

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    PvP reward CAN be exploitable as long as it is less exploitable than UT reward.

    You will find that going through the trouble of ressing an alt will make exploiting pointless when you can mash 1 in UT instead.

    What it will encourage, instead of "exploiting" is people fighting eachother for a long time 1v1 primarily for reward which, is not exploiting, but playing the PvP game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  13. Restless

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    @Chris Was armor durability loss also disabled with pvp loot? Or are we now just ruining our gear with zero way to repair from pvp?
     
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  14. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I dont think the durability loss should go away but i wouldnt be opposed to Skull Coins being usable to repair gear in place of cotos
     
  15. Restless

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    This is my point. There is absolutely no way to repair gear used in pvp currently. This is like trying to decorate a house by constantly spending cotos and never receiving the items you've purchased.
     
  16. Antrax Artek

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    The easiest and most effective solution is improving rates and spawners in pvp zones making them worthwhile to visit and make people want to fight there.
    The current situation it is quite disincentive by having these zone rates and spawners comparable to mid level safe zones.
    It had been mentioned in the past that there would be a lot of polish work in these areas, they did some changes in the past to the fall but even after these the area remains on low reward levels compared to the safe areas.
    I really hope the polish work is still on the roadmap along with the faction system and castle sieges.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
  17. Arkah EMPstrike

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    well i mean you CAN, you just cant make money PvPing and i know what you're on about. They DID in fact make coto drops mroe common in PvP zones a long time ago, but i think those are throttled anyways so im not sure that really helps but, you could make your earnings in PvP areas, which can be pretty lucrative.

    I think having the PvP zones have soemthign particularly lucrative to hold would be a good way to handle it, cuz you cant have player kills generating value as a faucet out of nowhere, and without it comign from the victim's inventory, having an outside source that you have to be in a pvp situation to obtain may be the next best thing?
     
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  18. Restless

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    I and a lot of other PvPers do not like PvE. Farming exp to get enough for PvP and gold for gear just to get nerfed every couple months is enough. Just how some crafters want to be able to craft their way in the game, some want to PvP their way in the game. Now with crafting receiving absolutely monumental buffing, PvPers should also be getting incentives.

    Currently there are only negatives for PvP, as pointed out previously.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  19. marcogame231

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    did any gm consider to give at least a 100% refound xp to all player since this things of ransom off may change totaly some built? what about if i'm a swordman thief with 140 in pickpoket? this thing of remove the ransom in an horrible idea, i wish at least some tippers tips u rly many dollars for remove that thing and that's crazy how ppl rthat are spending thousand of dollars in a videogame than complain about losing 300gp or even 10k of gp…..
     
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  20. Violet Ronso

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    You know that no-ransom is only for the next 2 weeks or so? you really want to recover exp for a build because during 2 whole weeks it works less? BTW PvP ransom is off, thieving isn't...