PVP Balance

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Soryu, May 25, 2018.

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  1. Soryu

    Soryu Avatar

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    Player versus Player is always a controversial subject. For many, PVP is the life blood of the game. Yet, for others it can be an annoyance. The developers have attempted to balance PVP by allowing additional experience to be earned by those fighting in PVP zones. However, the developers are also turning a blind eye to griefing and general PVP balance.

    The typical "griefing" PVP tactic is time an attack against another player either when he is engaged with a mob or when the target player is low health immediately nearing the end of the battle with the mob. The attacking "griefer" has numerous advantages. First, his combat deck is optimally set up for PVP which is a very different set up than for PVE. He also knows the class of character he is attacking. Third, he has total surprise and has a readily prepared attack planned. Finally, the player being attacked is the exact opposite by being caught off guard and/or engaged in PVE combat with a substantial mob.

    In general, I am okay with assuming the risk of PVP while experiencing in PVP zones. However, I am not okay with the extreme advantage given to the griefer attacker. A player bounty for a rare item can exceed 30,000 g and the griefer significantly mitigates his risk by being able to chose his target of opportunity and time. And often, the killing blow dealt to the player being attacked is landed by the Mob which results in a loss of experience and a bounty.

    There are numerous steps which can be taken which would at least level the playing field. If a player is attacked while engaged with a PVE mob or within 30 seconds of a PVE battle, maybe there could be 30 seconds of total damage defection for the attacked player to adjust to the new situation. The griefing player always has the ability to chose to attack players when not engaged in a battle with PVE mob so they are not forced to deal with the defection period.

    Another thought could be to substantially increase the bounty for an attacking player if he loses the battle when attacking someone who is engaged in a PVE battle. This could make it worthwhile for the "hunted" to turn the tables and set up a trap for the "griefer" with a second player hidden waiting.

    Developers should take some kind of action to at the very least level the playing field for PVP encounters. Paying a 30,000 gold bounty to someone who is literally taking no risk when engaging lower leveled players while engaged with high level PVE mobs is not a desirable game situation for anyone.

    Soryu
     
  2. Ristra

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    The balance here is between the bonus experience while PvEing while flagged PvP and the risk of being attacked while PvEing. Working as intended.

    Sounds like the cost of PvP is more of your issue. 30,000 gold doesn't sound fun at all.
     
  3. Acaelus Fireharp

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    I don't think it's working as intended at all, PVE mobs with high EXP rewards were put there to entice players into the PVP zones, not to give certain players a way to farm bounties from disadvantaged combatants.
    Because of griefing, the EXP enticement is simply not working any more, because the risk far outweighs the potential reward. If you compared the percentage of total land mass dedicated to PVP to the percentage of players who actually play in PVP zones on a regular basis, I'm sure the figures would speak for themselves. I have noticed that the Fall is much quieter since this became an issue.

    Soryu is right, something needs to be done, and the idea about granting a 100% PVP damage deflection buff whilst in PVE combat and for 30 seconds after PVE combat is a great idea.
     
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  4. Spinok

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    There is an easier way to solve it - not to wear lich ring if you can`t afford the ransom.
     
  5. Kpopgurl

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    The problem is the game doesn't reward grouping. The mechanic Soryu suggested can be exploited too easily.
     
  6. Scoffer

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    Development time shouldn't be spent on moderating how people play the game.
    For me this just sounds like a good tactic, strike when people are unaware and busy doing something else.

    Putting in something like a damage reflect if you are engaged in PVE just seems like its waiting to be exploited. Fire off a spell at a mob if it looks like you might be losing the pvp fight and what happens? Does the damage deflection start again?
     
  7. kaeshiva

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    Open world pvp in this game, as well as most others, can be drilled down to a single thing: People looking for an opportunity to get someone while that someone is otherwise engaged, distracted, etc. The fact that the devs reward this behavior by giving additional advantages for PvP, such as the forced multiplayer mode and bonus adventuring xp -which only serves to ADD TO THE VICTIM POOL FOR GRIEFERS, is downright appalling to me.

    Hitting someone over the head with a shovel while they're engaged with a mob is not meaningful PvP. Its opportunistic crap and if I'm honest, pretty immature. The fact that the game rewards it is equally disappointing.

    I have no issue with people doing this to each other all day long if they've both opted in to it for that reason - because they want to fight players. But don't give other reasons to opt-in unless you expect more of this sort of behavior, because that's all you're encouraging. If people truly wanted the thrill, challenge, and risk of PvP, then PvP would be its own reward. Dragging someone through a PvP zone to complete the main story quest is another good example of poor implementation.

    For PvP to meaningful, we need to add meaningful PvP, not just come up with more ways to inflict it on people who aren't interested.

    If something were added that made it more difficult/awkward to grief people, I can already hear the outrage from the PvPers over it. For a lot of those folks, griefing people is the entire point.
     
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  8. Kpopgurl

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    The problem this game has is the lack of reward for group play. In every other sandbox games, guilds secure leveling spots for their mates to level. In this game you get penalized for grouping and the XP and resources in PVP zones are not worth taking the effort. That is the reasons hardly anyone plays the game. The sandbox elements are bad or not even there. All this whining about griefing is just ridiculous. Never hate the player. Hate the devs for not implementing rewarding and balanced mechanics.

    This ultimately leads to conflicts of interest which spark drivers for groups of people to play the game. This game was turned into a giant hugbox from the beginning which is boring. Consensual PVP has been done way better in the past...
     
  9. Ristra

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    Where's a question. If you were in that PvP zone with the intent to PvP would things be different?
     
  10. Soryu

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    Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you have mine.

    Even suggesting "waiting for a PVP player to engage a mob" is a tactic is kind of lame. It is clearly a balance issue and strikes at the heart of risk reward. The attacking player has basically no risk or extremely little risk. Even with something less than a 30,000 credit bounty it is highly likely to be of more value than killing even a highly ranked mob.

    I am not suggesting consensual PVP. If you are in a PVP zone then you are consenting in my opinion.

    Finally, I "suggested" the deflection "if the player was engaged with a mob". Obviously, Scoffer did not comprehend the statement because I did not say the deflection worked if the player was attacked and not engaged with a mob. Therefore, attacking a mob after engaged in PVP would not be an option. Furthermore, it was only a suggestion to better balance what I might consider as an exploit.

    The developers certainly are critical to the process. As players, all we can do is point out flaws to the design as we interpret them. However, I see no way to justify a totally one sided PVP encounter. This kind of engagement is only "fun" for one side of the fight. Why wouldn't the developers want encounters to be better balanced? It is all I ever hear from developers when they nerf a class ability they deem to be overpowered. Well guess what, one player being attacked by another while low health, low focus or engaged in a battle with a mob is OVERPOWERED.

    Soryu
     
  11. Bambino

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    10% bonus XP? Even though you aren't suppose to lose XP in PvP, you do. 10%? nothing. No benefits at all.
     
  12. Bambino

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    Simple solution here - If you want to PvP, you SHOULD have to flag PvP. Simple as that.

    As suggested 1000x over, disable non-flagged PvP players from being able to commit PvP acts on flagged players. Bandaid, but works in short-term for these particular issues.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
  13. Nog

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    I concur. In my experiences - including SotA so far - World PVP is pretty much synonymous with hyper-powerful toons preying on those who could never hope to defend themselves (getting one-shotted, and likely from stealth in SotA).

    Having interesting quest areas to explore that can only be done so as PVP-bait is a bit of a twisted scenario. Sure you might go hours and not run into problems or only have to give up a vendor trash item if you are killed, but it's an unwanted choice for those who abhor PVP...or at least Pvping with a toon that can't possibly compete with older, superior toons prowling about.

    I have enjoyed willing, level-balanced, competitive PVP grounds in several games. But I think in many dozens of World PVP encounters without those balancing factors, 95% of them have been getting 1-2-3 shotted by characters drastically stronger than mine before I reach upper tier/level cap. It's no wonder (unwilling) World PVP leaves a bad taste in so many mouths.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
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  14. Ristra

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    If you are there to PvE then maybe you should adjust your location. If you flag open PvP then PvP will always be your priority. Because those people attacking you will make it so.

    That is the balance.
     
  15. Bambino

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    @Ristra: Who said anything about being there or here or anywhere for PvE? Side stepping the point is not balance.

    You sound like you are looking at this on paper. Instead, take it from people that experience the system daily.
     
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  16. kaeshiva

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    I agree 100% with this, but add the following caveat:

    If you DON'T want to PvP, you should NEVER have to flag - no forced multiplayer for quest zones, no PvE incentives for PvP, no faster/better PvE related drops/experience for PvP flagging. Lets make PvP about PvP and give it its own reward schema instead of constantly dragging in people who have no interest whatsoever in fighting other players. Until we do that, we're always going to have these arguments.

    The only real argument "against" doing this is griefers lose victims. Honestly, I don't see that as a problem at all - unless we want to be the sort of game that caters to folks whose only enjoyment is ruining other peoples time....and there's already plenty of those games out there, built around PvP as a core mechanic.
     
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  17. Acaelus Fireharp

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    It would have to be applied after X seconds of combat with PVE and not be applied if you have take PVP damage in the previous X seconds.
     
  18. Lord Tachys al`Fahn

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    The OP did. This whole conversation is happening because he is asking for something to balance out the situation Created when someone is in a PVP zone but attacking NPCs rather than other players, and then getting jumped by one of the other players who is using the time tested crappy tactic of sneaking up on someone and attacking them when they’re already engaged with something.

    While I agree with the majority of this statement, I just wanted to note that there are zero, I repeat ZERO, storyline quest that force you into PVP areas. The entire storyline can be completed beginning to end without stepping one tiny foot into a PVP zone. Now, they might’ve added side quests That you can only access from inside a PVP zone, but that’s another matter entirely.

    Let me go on the record because it’s been a while since I’ve said anything about this at any length, I am not a PVP player. Never have been directly, although that might change in the future.

    Having said that, can we please please please please please stop acting like the backstab tactic in PVP is new. This is now been around for literally decades, and there are very few ways (If any) that you will ever find a way to put a pvp system in place where someone will not be able to find a way to be a cheap asshat about it.

    PVE incentives in a PVP area are fine, please don’t pretend otherwise. What is making them a terrible idea for some people, is that they want to solo those things rather than engage them as a group. Find friends, form a group, and head to A shard fall or other PVP area and engage whatever the hell you want to. Or I don’t know, form up a group and set a trap for the ones that are doing this so they can come to the forms and whine about it! I, personally, would LOVE to see some of that…
     
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  19. Soryu

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    Actually the time tested cowardly PVP method of attacking players while engaged in PVE combat CAN be mitigated with some programming. It is not all that different from invulnerability added to players for a short time after zoning to ensure they are in control of their player. I concede even adding a deflection of damage timer to attacked player will still likely place him at disadvantage. In fairness, the entire concept requires some brainstorming and development testing. Nevertheless, my opinion is allowing griefers to continue with this play style is OVERPOWERING them. I like the OVERPOWER and balance approach to developers since developers love to use the overpower approach to nerf our everyday playstyle. Why should griefers get a free pass?

    The grouping approach is a solution in a way, but grouping is simply not always an option to meet individual player goals. And the idea of trapping the griefer is insufficient gratification. Consider it in this way. A solo coward griefer spends his day hunting solo players engaged in PVE combat with a mob. He will find 100 players which are NOT TRAPS. And once trapped he is not going to continue to engage. So great, you get the satisfaction of "trapping him" once "maybe". And maybe he is not online the particular day you decide to go hunting. So yet again, the griefer position is OVERPOWERED.

    As for flagging for PVP, when you enter a PVP zone you are flagging for PVP. It is fair enough warning by developers. The 10% experience gain is a red herring since the developers are in reality leading the lambs to slaughter. "IF" developers really "CARE" about game balance, then they should be proactive. They know better than any of us how OVERPOWERED griefers are.

    Maybe the solution could be something as simple as a death experience penalty if a griefer attacks a player while engaged with a PVE mob similar to the experience loss of being killed by a mob. Just saying there are solutions if simple ground rules are considered.
     
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  20. Ristra

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    What you are wanting it your cake while eating it too.

    You are trying to PvE in a PvP zone. Then complain that you can't get the full benefit of the bait to PvP while PvEing.

    If you were in that zone 100% set up for PvP would you be losing? If the answer is yes then maybe that's the issue. If the answer is no, then adjust yourself to be ready for Open PvP. Because you are flagged and PvP will always be first.

    If you need to PvE while flagged open PvP then do so but expect to be attack. That's the risk vs reward people wanted.
     
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