PvP centric resources

While I agree in general I still have some reservations... Maybe my mind is just wandering too far into extremes but the (unintended?) consequences I imagine are:
(1) Players who excel at PvP are strongly incentivized to not harvest resources themselves but instead stalk [most likely in groups?] players who come to harvest, waiting for them to fill up before going in for the kill.
(2) The obvious [and entirely reasonable] counter to this is that players who want to get a leg up through harvesting the highest yield hexes can organize themselves to harvest and protect their harvesting operations. I think this could lead to some really interesting and fun struggles between guilds and groups [which has nothing to do with griefing] that mostly adds to the game experience.
(3) But this means that players who don't want PvP as a major part of their game experience are at a significant disadvantage in terms of access to resources. There will quickly be a notable accumulation of resources among those who excel at PvP, simply because they PvP.

If I remember correctly it was mentioned by the Dev team that they are considering making the resource advantages of PvP pertain primarily to the PvP experience. In that regard I [half-jokingly] suggested Avatar kryptonite as the PvP resource that we ought to expect. All jokes aside I think a lot of players might find that solution disappointing. Yet something along those lines makes the most sense for balancing the game between PvP and PvE focused players, at least from a mechanics standpoint. Whether our acclaimed story master can make it work at the story level is another issue entirely [but I think he could].

In anticipation of the counterargument that the Avatar kryptonite approach takes a lot of the steam out of incentivizing players not generally interested in PvP to give it a try - I agree. Mystic's example hits that note a lot better. So the question maybe is which functionality to prioritize?

 

I'm not sure how this is going to work out with players being PVP and crafters at the same time.
In UO a PK would come kill me while mining ore but then he could do little with it.
If he did try to smelt he would ruin most of it.
But now a PK can come in and kill you and smelt the ore.

Let say they are using a skill point system.
Maybe it could be like 500 fighting - 500 crafting - 200 -either side
Something that can give one side the edge over the other.

 

@jondavis There was plenty for a PK to do with ill-gotten ore in UO... If not having an alt smelt and use it there would easily be a friend or guildie who could. I don't think SotA really changes that regardless of whether players have the skill space/freedom to PvP and craft.

 

Well as one who got killed many times mining, most of the time they either left the ore or tried dragging it to the forge.
And then they still have to deal with you coming back since usually there was a healer nearby.
Splitting the ore up and dragging piles around different directions would get the pk in a mess and sometimes he would just leave it there.

 

There's another aspect to PvP incentives that the devs will have to take into account: they also serve as incentives for players to just abandon the online game, or in some cases the game as a whole.

The offline game, after all, not only will be (quite obviously) balanced for solo play, but it also can be modded; if there is anything that in the online game is exclusive to PvPers - including faster progression speed - and that players that are unwilling to engage in PvP see as either highly desirable or a must have, those players might choose to play offline, and get those "must haves" using mods if needed be, rather than engage in PvP.

My sincere hope is that the extra rewards for PvP will be tuned to make progression speed similar for both PvP and PvE online players, as well as offline players. That would enable players to effectively choose what they prefer, without progression speed being used to force players into a play style they don't like.

 

You can harvest in the safe world and every hour there you harvest say you'd get 100 ore. But take the risk and harvest in unsafe world and in an hour you would get 150 ore. The disadvantage wouldn't be significant. If you are harvesting in unsafe world and you see someone else, you leave... the world is big. I feel a lot of the people commenting are looking too much into it and don't have the experience playing games like old UO. This happened all the time. I would be mining and I see a murderer on screen boom I get the hell out of there and pick a diff mining spot. If I die what did I lose, 15 min of work? I can't carry the whole mountain worth of ore in my pack right? So I would be making runs dropping ore into the bank or house etc.

The richest people in UO were 1) PVE people who did the harder PVE bosses that would drop rare items. ie. DOOM, small artificat/large artifact bosses. 2)Resource gatherers,crafters who would mine/lumberjack craft all day, do Bulk order deeds which when filled out would get you a small chance of instantly getting an item that would let you make any item with high end qualities to the item. Everyone in the game wore player crafted armour for the most part bc it was the best. 3) People in PVP Guilds who controlled the spawns that gave out power scrolls which would allow people to go over the 100 skill cap.I PVPed for 8 years and even though my guild controlled the power scroll spawns we have to split the loot between each other and we never were that rich individually. The richest people were the PVE people.

I feel this is a knee jerk reaction to people who don't have the experience of playing a game like the old UO. They hear stories or think worst case scenario. They are too used to the games where the goal is to acquire as much crap as possible, get the highest level as possible etc. And once you reach that goal/level, the game adds another tier above you to reach. I prefer the games where you have the freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want and I am not pigeon holed into a certain quest or item acquiring goal, or level level level at all times.

Some days I liked to treasure hunt, so I would go into the a place where a bunch of player owned houses with player run vendors were outside and I looked for a treasure maps being sold by a player. I'd buy the map, decode it with my cartography skill, get a friend or two, get a shovel and a boat deed and set sail.

Some days I liked to sit around the bank, organize crap in the bank or organize stuff in my house. Redesign the interior, maybe make a few tables and chairs, put a painting I bought on the wall.

Some days I would like to go searching the continent for houses that were going to fall. People didn't pay their subscription or maybe they were banned so there houses would collapse. This would let you put a new house down and loot all the items they had in their house. Usually it was a rush with other players to get the house down or look through the chests to find rare items. Reminded me of when someone gets evicted and the sheriff throws all their stuff on the street.

Some days I would like to mine because my smith is so close to being maxed out and he needs metal to make more items.

Some days I wanted to sneak around and snoop peoples pockets and steal crap.

Some days I wanted to go to mine and kill a miner for shits and giggles.

Everything aforementioned was done in an open pvp world, it wasn't the instantly getting murdered fest that most of the people in here are making it sound.

 

This question might have been answered in a different forum, if so, a link to it would be appreciated. But, is looting in PvP (or in general) going to be a free for all loot fest. As in, if someone dies (or kills a monster), then all loot including amour, reags, etc.. are free game for everyone in the area.

 

I really really really do NOT want to see a PvP based stat, skill, spell, resource, or weapon. The idea that something would work, or would work better, because it's being used on a player instead of an NPC (even if they are the same race, even if they are the same "build") purely because one IS a player is ludicrous, and would not only take away realism, but would begin the divide towards having totally PvP builds and totally PvE builds, which IMHO is a serious hindrance to game balance and innovation.

I can understand if someone has a PvE build and a PvP build, because THEY LIKE THEM THAT WAY. When the game mechanics force everyone to do it, though, because there is some mechanism that makes shooting or hacking at or stealing from or fireballing a PLAYER different from doing it to a NPC, that really messes things up.

 

Every PC that wants to achieve any level of success in PvP is going to do just about everything differently from the way they would fighting NPC/AI. That's no big surprise and yep, it's because of the game mechanics. If the devs took your assertion seriously they would be building a game in which a player couldn't tell the difference between fighting an NPC and a PC. That's ludicrous.
As for taking away from realism; there's nothing realistic about PCs coming back from the dead no matter how many times or how they die while NPCs die for good. The story is apparently being worked to make that aspect more realistic by characterizing Avatars (PCs) as having some sort of super-mortal properties in New Britannia, hence certain cosmic substances that have a particular effect on Avatars would not be at all far fetched.

 

That's more than safe to assume.

Agreed. But couldn't non-pvp people organize themselves to take over the safe low spawn areas too? I've seen this happen in other games where the safe zones become farmed 24/7 because they're safe.

I wouldn't say "simply because they PVP" so much as I'd say because they take on more risk. If your playing style is essentially "I don't like to risk anything" then it's not particularly important for the devs to hand you free resources as a bonus. I think the non-PVPers still have plenty of room to adapt. For example, they can always hire people to protect them while they gather resources.

 

It's worth noting that UO was a 2D game and SotA will be a 3D game. What's that mean? Take a look at Darkfall Online mining. (note that this is actually the sequel: Darkfall Unholy Wars...but it shows my point well)



Notice how you're unable to see behind you? In Darkfall Online, you didn't see people before they attacked you, you were just dead. And you lost more than 15 minutes worth of work because the nodes that you could mine were not unlimited. Gathering resources was so boring in that game (and it seems very similar to what SotA is pushing) and it was very difficult even paying super close attention to the screen to defend yourself.

Plus, it's not like there are going to be mounts in at release so how are you even going to get away? You're going to need protection, and that's going to take money and people being online. The game has to be built with this in mind.

Here's a better showing of what I'm talking about...this is a poorly designed game.

 

PvP-centric resources. PvP slider. How can you have both?

 

You could have resources that are only good for making things used in pvp. (and blocked from being obtained if your slider is set to non-pvp)

 

Completely agree that there should be nothing like this. It's the opposite of what they want to do. If there's any kind of "PvP reward, only good for PvP," then it needs to be 100% cosmetic (title, achievement, etc.).

PvP resources are really two categories:
1) Controlling an objective, controls a resource. e.g. a tower over some rare mine. This is something requiring a ground, maybe a large group (guild, city, etc.) to take.
2) Some rare resources areas in more or less FFA zones where a PvP flag is required. You can either risk PvP to go in yourself, or trade for that resource.

 

I like how you edited out the sentence from my post that addresses your point. I don't care HOW MUCH explanation the story provides. I care that a crucial point of game destroying imbalance is avoided. A spell should not work better or worse on players because they are players. The same should apply to all other abilities, items, and effects. It's not about story. It's about the effect is has on gameplay.

Once again, with feeling. It's OK if players have multiple builds cause they want them. It's NOT ok if every player is forced to have a PvE build and a PvP build to do THE SAME THING but with players instead of mobs. A healer should be fine in both PvE and PvP situations, only varying their setup by inclination and preference, not because "if you don't take skill X and item B, you will die". A player who builds a tank should be effective at stopping melee hits from NPCs and players at the SAME RATE, because a sword is a sword is a sword. Now if it's a contest between giant spider NPCs and fireball hurling PCs, yes, different abilities are involved in stopping the damage. But if there is a weapon or armor that works on players and NOT on NPCs of the same type, it will begin creating a rift in play mechanics. It will provoke defenses, which will become PvP mandatory, which will provoke extra attack specialties, which will become PvP mandatory, and before you know it, your super effective method of killing a NPC will be useless against players purely because they ARE players. At which point, in order to maintain as much variety in the game, there will have to be twice as many viable builds, one each for PvE and PvP, OR, if there aren't then one side of the equation will seem stunted, and the players will make SURE the devs feel it.

It creates an unending imbalance. One that occupies and wastes the devs time constantly trying to fix, one that creates endless conflicts and exploits, and ultimately reduces the coolness of the game. If I get an awesome new combo/spell/weapon, I want it to kick butt regardless of who owns the butt.

Oh, and

I don't care if you can tell the difference between PC's and NPC's (although, to be frank, the day a company manages to release an MMO with mobs that can pass the turing test in open combat there will be a new king of the MMO's)

 

I don't think you understand. The only fair point you made was that it is harder to see other people before they attack you. I played Mortal Online and DarkFall, you just need to be more aware of your surroundings.

Having mounts is a non issue. Having a pack horse in UO meant that you'd be slower getting away and you'd have more resources to lose, and what if the murderer would be on a mount? It prob would be better with no mounts bc you would have less resources to lose if you died.

In UO the resources weren't unlimited either. Your tool would break and after a couple whacks the node would be empty. Gathering resources is boring in every game for the most part, you make it sound like UO resource gathering was a fun filled adventure. Actually scratch that, it was fun filled when you would occasionally get a rare resource from the node or when a player attacked you/you attacked another miner etc. That actually made resource gathering exciting.

 

Reading through the above, a suggestion to solve the pve/pvp and resource quandry is as follows:
1) Certain percentage of the world is open PVP with several desirable crafting resources found only in these zones.
2) Certain percentage of the world is PVE centric with several desirable crafting resources found only in these zones.
3) It is important to have some important resources (but not all) in PVP zones - it makes these resources valuable and creates a goal for PVP. Similarly, it is also important to have some important resources (but not all) in the more challenging PVE content (ie dungeons, elites, etc). Again, makes these resources more valuable and creates a goal for PVE. This type of balance further allows for both PVP centric and PVE centric players to be able to barter these respective resources with each other. It creates an economy of its own. It has the additional benefit of providing additional gameplay for players who like both PVP and PVE.
4) Skills - If SOTA is designed like UO, there should be enough skill points available for crafters to develop skills necessary to stealthily infiltrate PVP zones for gathering.

 

"But its not fair! If I want to PVE I should get to access all facets of the game. I should be able to get the same resources that PVP-centric people get. I shouldn't have to be forced to go to open pvp area to get a crafting resource! If I can't do somethings in the game because I am not open pvp person, it is like I bought a game and I can't even use a percentage of the game I bought!"
- Respected Fellow Players


Forgive me fellow open world fans, I had to get that shitty argument in before any legit discussion is to be had...

 

Well thought! In reality, if it worked just that way, no one could legitimately whine about being denied resources, just go to the auction house and buy them, you will be giving your gold to someone who fought and bled for those resources. If you are running low on cash, post some of your PvE only resources, and that same PvP gatherer will likely spend the money you just gave him buying what you posted.

 

1. How does this interact with selective multiplayer ( https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?p=3955 )? There are, in theory, ways to avoid PvP without touching the "PvP slider".
2. Wouldn't this be an incentive for PvE players to just go play offline, where they will be able to go everywhere and get all resources by themselves, without PvP interference? The main idea of the single player online mode is to convince players that usually stay offline to give online a try; your proposal basically means that those players will have more of the world, and more rewards, available if they stay offline, nullifying in large part the draw the single player online mode could have over them.

Not likely to be an issue. Crafting skill points and combat skill points should be independent, so characters won't have to sacrifice crafting prowess to be the best at combat, or to sacrifice combat prowess to be the best at crafting.