PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

I loved SP shard, I had allot of fun there when it opened. I think our old guild house is still standing there just outside of Moonglow with a sign that still reads "first house on the shard". Back then it was a really nice place to have a good large war on, but I haven't been back there for many years, so I wonder if it's all still there...
~Time Lord~

 

Yeah, in PvP you either need to crank death penalties way down or have some other kind of "defeat" which isn't death. Because you're looking at a 50/50 change to lose every encounter and multiple encounters / minute.

While you can have a game where everyone has lots of escapes, this often makes things difficult to balance. Especially with flexible build choices where PvPers will load up on defense oriented skills and run circles around people min/maxed for PvE dps.

 

Why does looting have to be realistic? Today system you can loot 1 item or money rains from the sky into your bank account, not very realistic.

Full loot is/was what the majority of PvP interested players (not sure how many of them is still arround) wanted in this poll and that is what developers should try their best to fulfill -

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum...h-are-you-unofficial.4120/page-19#post-139331

And full loot to me dont mean any item or gear bought with real life money, only gear that is easily replaced like it was in post-trammel (UO Renaissance).

UO Renaissance was also consensual PvP since you as a player had to consent to entering felucca.

So consensual PvP and full loot. That is the risk vs reward game SotA PvP players wanted.

This PvP compromize is far from what the PvP interested players desired. I feel developers instead are trying to please the ones that might wanna try PvP out sometimes. A major miscalculation since the effect of that reasoning seems to have been many PvP players leaving this game.

This is some points i mentioned in another thread why i see full loot as the better option then the one we were presented with -

Loosing gear have always been a harder risk then loosing some money in your bank. You're out of the fight for some minutes (UO) and that had a huge impact especially in teamfights. Getting that extra number advantage cause you played skillful often settled the outcome of teamfights when you fought equally skilled players. Looting gear/items give you a good feel you got rewarded and same time the opponent feel he actually lost something to the better player, getting money as a reward is the same as defeating a PvE mob and far from the PvP rewards players seek in this game (see poll earlier posted on full loot or not). PvP players (i mean the real ones) took the loss in stride and trained and competed more until he could take out the player he earlier lost to. Getting what the other player had in his backpack differed from time to time depending on what he had in his backpack (UO) and sometimes you got the jackpot with Vanquishing weapons and invulnerable armor with loads of reagences and on and on.

Money is a very unpersonal reward and give no thrill whatsoever since it isnt in any way random. You never get the same thrill getting a message from the game that you have some more money in your bank, opening the corpse of your defeated enemy always gave you a good feeling of being rewarded.

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/want-more-funding-add-real-pvp.11542/page-7

 

Or a game like EVE, where a PvP player actively looking for a fight will often spend many hours before being able to engage in PvP, and most PvP players might take part in just a few PvP fights per month.

Not that it's bad per see, but it caters to a different kind of player, one that finds as much fun in the preparation as in the fight itself; a player that enjoys the fight more than the preparation will likely find this kind of PvP boring.

 

There's so many different sausages.
When all are correct it's so hard to choose which one,
I don't want to know what went into it as long as it tastes good
~Time Lord~

 

Except, we're seeing the sausage ingredients with this game lol

 

I never feared death in a game. But then, I actually believe I'm physically unable to feel fear from anything I know for a fact to be fictional. When I watch terror and horror movies, it's to get a good laugh at the ridiculous ways those attempt to incite fear on the audience, and I've made a few supposedly scary pen and paper RPG sessions with GMs that didn't know of that trait of me, let's say, interesting.

What I feel about the possibility of a large setback, instead, is frustration. There is simply no thrill there for me to feel, nothing pleasant in any way about how high the "risk" I'm under in a game (which never feels like an actual risk, because my mind is always aware that it's just a game). This might be why I'm so keen on having actual challenge instead; getting through something where failing would result in some large setback wouldn't bring any positive feeling for me, but getting through something I needed a dozen or more attempts before getting right? That is downright exciting.

168 gameplay hours to recover from a death? That is a game I would never play. Or, if I started playing, I would likely leave the game before long out of boredom due to never being actually challenged, or else leave the first time I died and saw how long it would take me to recover.

It would lead to a game where the devs would be forced to tune death to be so uncommon that most players would go months without dying even once, a game where engaging in PvP, or attempting anything actually risky, more than once a week would make the game nearly impossible to play. Seems like a recipe for boredom for me.

 

Falling in 3d games still get's that fear thing going. As long as there is potential for death there is that gut wrenching pause before the landing. Nothing else gets even close.

 

The funny thing I find about me is that "I won't watch horror movies" because they make freighted nope, they make me nauseated In real life no matter if it's boom, pow, bang or someone beating my face in, I'm very calm and feel right at home with. Everyone has such different Yin/Yang I guess
Since this is Ultima, I can forgive many things about most things that will come, because I know there will be so much here to enjoy in so many different ways.
I'm hoping that we will see some sort of strategy that could show factional or war guild controlled things.
No matter what death turns out as, I'm sure I'll be doing it
~Time Lord~

 

What are you, PVP or PVE player? What type?
PVP - Consensual - No Looting 32 vote(s) 11.2%
PVP - Consensual - Full Looting 56 vote(s) 19.6%
PVP - Consensual Or Not - No Looting 11 vote(s) 3.8%
* PVP - Consensual Or Not - Full Looting 126 vote(s) 44.1%
PVE - Only - No Looting 35 vote(s) 12.2%
PVE - Only - Full Looting 26 vote(s) 9.1%

 

Brilliant points Ara. I was tossing around a concept, that I thought was good at the time.
I see now that it is flawed.
The kill is the reward in PvP. Eat or be eaten.

 

"Eat or Be Eaten, The Future of New Britannia?"

(1985 Firesign Theater, bring back those good memories)
If you enjoyed Firesign Theater and miss those good old days,
"The New Britannia Theater Troupe"
Where New Britannia Fan Fiction, Comes Alive!... as well as the Dead'
What's the smell of death all about in New Britannia?, wait and listen for updates...
On New Britannia's Avatar Radio
~Time Lord~Jester~

 

This video ruined my life. Thanks for posting it.

 

• Blessings of the Oracle (Open PVP): Sounds good - however I'd wish for a kind of open multiplayer mode where I can only see and be seen by people who are flagged for PvP as well. Reason: If I'm flagged for PvP, People not flagged for PvP are irrelevant to me, so I don't need to see them, whereas they mustn't see me because they could provide intel.
• Guilds (Warfare and Open PVP): Sounds alright.
• PVP Zones: Can't say I like the entire PvP/PvE item and skill separation - it just adds incoherence. Moreover, there should be ressources exclusively obtainable in PvP areas (more on that later)
• Duels: I think the best model would be splitting PvP up into "duel" mode, where the current single item loot/ransom rules apply and a "war" mode where 100% loss applies.
  
  Duel mode could also apply to clans in the form of tournaments and historically, that's what actually happened: Groups of Knights would fight as in a battle, disable but not kill their opponent and then take ransoms (as opposed to jousting, which is what many people wrongly believe to be a tournament which was always centered on the melee).
  
  In a war, I'd even be fine with permadeath.
  
  There you go - people not willing to PvP can opt out, people who just want to scuffle a little engage in duels or tournaments and people interested in a little more suspense go to war. Since it's all consensual in SotA, I don't see a problem.

• PVP Level & Skills: No - just no. This segregation feels completely superimposed and artificial.
• Loot & Ransoms: No - Full loot in proper PvP - this system can be used in scuffles.
• Grouping: This is necessary, yes - as denoted above, Open Multiplayr and open Multiplayer PvP should be separated in the first place.
• Trophies: Not really a good idea - this would encourage trophy hunting and would encourage killing players as an end in itself, not means to an end.
• Leaderboards, Ranking, Ladders: No - Killboards have ruined Eve onlines PvP. As I said above, killing shouldn't be an end in itself, but means to an end. As soon as there's a Leaderboard, someone wants to lead it and that motivates killing people for the sake of killing them and having the largest e-peen. It deteriorates motivations to PvP to something akin reaching the highscore in Pacman.

DEATH!

Sounds ok - a bit soft for my taste.

Why no full loot?
I absolutely disagree. If someone is too careful to use his best gear in PvP, so be it - he's at a disadvantage but at less risk and that's a tradeoff everyone deciding to flag for PvP has to make. it adds depth, it adds consideration. Therefore I think this should only apply to scuffling, but not proper PvP. I want to be immersed in a game, I want suspense and I want risk, not some gamey safety net like this.

Why a ghost?
Sounds ok

Cost of Death?
Should be harsher, I'd be fine with permadeath. It makes people think before they engage. I know it wont happen, but the harsher, the better.

 

sounds neat but i think alot of poeple will just carry around like 100 blank scrolls or something worth nothing so the chance of a good item being taken is greatly reduced.

 

What about the option for Duels to use leathal or non-lethal damage. Non-lethal duals leave the loser with 1 hitpoint but still alive. The Lethal duals can be to the death if people want.

Why have non-lethal duals: Guildmembers can practice PvP skills among themselves without the risk of killing their buddies. Also people can have "Sport Duals", which aren't meant to kill people.

Lethal duals: In my opinion two people should be able to fight, just like people flagged for PvP. However if there is no real legal reason to fight, and it ends in death then the person who wins the dual should be a criminal (unless they are in a place where dueling to the death is legal). I see no problem in somebody looting another person in a lethal dual. If they dislike eachother so much that they want to KILL the other person then why not have a loot option. Otherwise why not just test your skills in a more sporting non-lethal dual?

 

this is not UO Kobol script lol...

in a cloud algorythms for ressource calculations can be handled separately...

*huge sigh*

 

I never see the point on non-lethal duels forced by the system. If you don't want to fight to the death then you agree before you fight........as always earth can still be an accident, at which point everyone points and laughs at the guy who died.

 

good point but we have to remember that we don't want tons of dead people lying round town etc... I guess dueling in town should be seen as a nuisance unless in appropriate areas ?

I want the most liberty possible, with the less system rules possible, you all know my faith in cloud self-moderation, it needs to be implemented... roleplay algorythms are already planned for NPC, but they need to use cloud data and player perspective too or it will always look stupid.

I said it how many times now...