PVP & Death: Current Thinking Megapost

NWN had some dependencies to central servers which did cause problems when gamespy shutdown and people could not authenticate their accounts. It was a rough few months before people found hacks they could do on their mods to resolve it (major plus for exposing developer tools!). And like SOTA there was no monthly fee. You bought the game and whether you played for 10 minutes or 20 years Bioware made no more or less money, so the number of players really doesn't mean anything other than Portalarium hosting fees would go down. As such if they just decide to shut it down it will be because people are not buying the game at all which is another issue. Personally, I am hoping Portalarium opens up or released their server product sometime after EP5 (or if they decide to kill it) so we can run our own worlds: sort of like the free shards of UO.

I have hopes for the filter, but we don't know how well it will work. Without some sort of user control it is hard to say you won't play with WOW junkies or PVPers or whatever. You might be able to flood your friends list so there is not much room for "strangers", but we don't know. My main response to acrylic was really that the "element" he was referring too rarely has dedicate to games like this, and will jump to the next one as soon as its available (usually so they can join the race to max level). As such its a self correcting problem for those with patience.

 

*quit
(Just giving you a little grief, nothing personal.)


Anyways. Yeah. I know for a fact that if there were a game that ever forced me to do PvP, I'd drop it like it was a spider as big as my head. If not for the Affinity system, I'd be all for Full Loot on death, but forcing someone to clock in god knows how many more hours because they got jumped by some goons seems just mean.


My personal opinion is that PvP draws in communities that tend to be very competitive, very aggressive, and often very back-stabby. I don't care for that when my hours on an account are at risk. That being said, I am glad that SotA is going to have PvP, because it means that they're aiming for the largest user base possible. If there was absolutely no PvP, then they'd lose that side. If there was forced PvP, they'd lose the other side (Including me). By allowing it as a choice, they're not saying "Screw you guys" to half of their potential (paying) members. It REALLY is just that simple, if you want it to be. They can make the most money (Which, I know, isn't the only reason for them to do this. But it sure helps.) if they are able to have more people. If they have more money, they can make better sequels and release better content. If they release better content and such, the members they do have are happier. Etc.

 

I was going to go post by post and show you quotes of your desire for pre Tram UO but there is no value in that, not interested in a reply with a denial. Knowing what you want and having a desire to see that being supported here in SotA is what we all are here doing. But pushing all that through a UO prism isn't not going to go far.

There are many facets of SotA that do not fit UO. Story driven, consensual PvP, combat/crafting exp are separate, meta server, item affinity, that's off the top of my head.

So when I see comments like:

You are not following what the devs are saying, they want you to have affinity to your gear so you do actually wear your best holy armor. This means content is developed for good gear and not throw away gear and there is no such thing as the naked mage. Crafters will be crafting better gear with better resources and not throw away gear.

Or comments like this:

You say you understand that people want to be safe, with a passive aggressive flare. There is no reason open PvP can not be robust and full of Risk vs Reward, it's just going to be consensual. So what you must chose to be in the open PvP.

Then we land on this comment:

How so? What elements of SotA clone WoW? Unless you subscribe to the belief that either it's pre Tram UO or it's a WoW clone.

Short version:
SotA alread has many elements that break away from that model. Take a look at each element and bounce them off what you desire. There is a reason they do not go with non consensual PvP and full loot. If you disagree with that reason, address that with each design intent in mind. Smacking the UO model on it is going no where.

Here is a small list to go with, these are not likely to change. Posting comments/ideas/suggestions that would require them to scrap the plan is not productive. Instead, adjustment and slight course corrections with these in mind, would be a more realistic goal that could actually turn the Dev teams ear.
Story driven, consensual PvP, combat/crafting exp are separate, meta server, item affinity

 

Hmmm...the last few pages here have gotten a bit ugly.

I'm locking the thread, until me or another mod has time to clean things up some.

 

Okay, I think that's all the cleanup that was needed. But while I'm here, some sundry comments:

Well, it has existed in some Ultimas. Unless we want to redefine "gear" to include a broad spectrum of items beyond mere weapons and armour. You can, after all, pass Ultima 6 with just your base sword & armour...but you do need to acquire eight moonstones, the Vortex Cube, and the hot air balloon.

Or, ya know...there was this set of cards in Ultima 3...

Actually, the only "influence" EA exerted on Ultima 9 was the imposition of a deadline; EA did nothing to shape or define the actual content or plot of the game directly, and in fact desperately wanted Origin to cancel it to focus on online stuff.

 

Really? could you perfect a warrior that could kill ogre lords solo (This was in 1999-2000 era)

 

I think that is not the correct question. The correct question, in my opinion, should be, "Should you be able to perfect a warrior that could kill ogre lords solo".

Personally, I am of the opinion that creatures of that level should not be able to be soloed with trivial ease, but instead should require a group to defeat. But then, UO had many balance issues of this sort, and since mages and tamers and bards could defeat such creatures with almost trivial ease, so I guess the devs felt that warriors had to be thrown a bone, hence things like Ogre Lord weapons of whoop ass and indestructible armor. This was a band aid applied to a fundamental design flaw.

 

I don't care much for the, it's all about the character idea. I think a balance between gear + character development is needed. Otherwise there is no point to crafting/finding equipment, if all you do is work on your character and pvp I can see why you would feel this way though. That way you don't have to compete with adventurers and crafters.

 

Gear is necessary, but I don't want to see uber gear that permits players to leap tall buildings with a single bound. Once you go there, then it is not the case that I defeat the Ogre Lord. My gear defeats the Ogre Lord, and I'm just the gear operator.

How freakin' heroic is that?

 

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but what about giving the home owner a toggle so he can have the option to require the PvP flag on their property or you cant enter. Also remove the LOOT/Ransom system on the property. When you walk on the property it will send a popup message asking to enable PvP.

Now if your engaged in PvP before you reach any property that is PvE and/or has the LOOT/Ransom system turned off then you are still subject to being killed and looted.

Reason why I ask this is at The Bear Tavern we want the freedom of allowing someone to attack someone that is just bad mouthing and/or pissing someone off or doing something of that nature that our guards feel the need to use force on a patron in a forced duel way. Where If the property owner has it set to on you will be forced to duel anyone solo or group. You can not be killed but you will be kicked off the property with full health and must get permissions to get back on. We dont want people to be in PvE and sitting around causing a ruckus and nothing anyone can do about it. There are still rules within The Bear Tavern that would be enforced by our guards/militia and staff, however not all guards will have kick permissions (depending on the housing permissions set up) but we would like to give the freedom to our patrons to attack with reason. Yes that leaves it open for players to attack randomly.

Maybe there is a different way to do it. The person that wants to attack asks a person with the proper house permissions if he is can attack "This guy" and if granted it auto toggles PvP on both "This guy" and the attacker. The PvP flag will only be on while on the property and maybe so many meters off. (just a random idea that popped up when I was typing)

So players will have access to control the style of PvP at the home.

We are waiting on the final word on the PvP structure to see what we can do with our tavern and PvP events we plan on holding in our tavern basement. With that said, even a duel system for this such of a thing would be nice if we cant toggle PvP and turn off the LOOT/Ransom stuff in our home.

Feel free to toss suggestions on ways to do this.

 

I'm not certain whether it would be technically feasible to give an above ground lot that sort of control.

*However* : The basements are a separate scene from the town map (you go to the transition screen when you enter a basement), so changing the ruleset for a basement map sounds quite feasible.

Even have a handy transition point to prompt a user : When they double click on the basement portal.

Set up a nice little free-for-all basement arena. Sounds pretty sweet.

 

I like the idea of *fight clubs* but just mentioning them...well you know...

 

Ack, you talked about Fight Club ?

Ack, I talked about Fight Club!

Too late.

 

One thing about gear people seem to miss is that just because the Devs want you to wear gear without fear does not mean that its a gear based game. Maybe they just want the fruits of their labor (art, etc) used and in play rather than in a bank or house. This doesn't mean there will be a Sword of Epic Peacock Slaying with +20 damage to Peacocks or fancy lads. There could be just be a variety of item designs with very slight modifications in stats along with the addition of history which they have talked of adding. So you might have 2 sword and both are just as effective in battle, but you like the 2nd one because you once slayed Umbrae with it. Its important to you but only in a cosmetic way.

I understand the argument about love of gear, but there is a lot of reason people love to collect stuff. RG knows of this well being a big collector. I don't think supporting collectors with an alternate (non-full) loot mechanic will be all that bad. I think people tend to look at UO which was really a different game in many ways, and as such cannot see how the system as a whole would work. Our examples are WOW and other loot heavy games, but I think the plan with SOTA was to have your skills rule with gear only being as important as your sentiment toward it.

 

Wow thanks guys, lots of nice info, I'm happy to learn Ultima 9 wasn't influenced. Some voices were too quiet, some are still too weak... thats what I perceived I guess.

By all means keep talking... nowhere did I pretend to be all knowing or greater than anyone. Maybe I did use a little ironic humor and classic gentleman diplomacy in releasing the pressure valve but I did it for the greater good

I'm glad for the people that could stand up against my projections and put me back in my place on their terms.

So now my question to you avatar, is... how did it feel ?

There just might be hope for you yet...

 

Well I think many thought King Arther was quite heroic, even with his sword Excalibre. I don’t think having gear that is interesting and at times powerful ruins a game. Not having enough variety to me, ruins the game. I totally agree with Mishri on this. I think it would make for a very bland game design.

 

I like the idea of gear with certain purposes like for slaying specific creatures or players that wear certain kinds of gear. In D&D my character was terrified of being electrocuted. I equipped her with gear that provided lots of bonuses vs. lightning, learned protection from lightning magic etc.
A PvP player would have a field day hitting me with fireball, poisoned weapons, what have you. I just didn't want to die by lightning. Gearing up to face a specific threat is cool. Using the vanadium sword instead of the titanium one because you're 8th level now, not so much.
I am totally for many different types of the same item. I love that especially if each has a special use. I would be more encouraged to collect items if they had widely varied use others than "it does the same thing as the 5th level version but this one is the 9th level version."
Having to buy new stuff when you level up is exciting but it is essentially punishing someone for advancing their character. "Good job making it to level 10. Now if you want to keep doing what you were doing, you need to dump a bunch of resources to be as good as you were."
A certain game *cough*EQ2*cough* had it so that when you leveled up, your skill cap went up and if your intelligence was no longer at the cap, your spells did less damage than they did before you went up that level. Oh that sucked. That wasn't the intention but that happens often in gear based systems and it was over a year before they got it all worked out and there are still ranges of items you have to have to fill your role.

sent from the future using my Coleco Adam

 

Basically I like playing with others, but I hate being forced to play with others, and even more if that forced part is non-consensual conflict.

In other words, I would rather play alone than play multiplayer with non-consensual PvP, but on the other hand I would really, really prefer to play online with the option to play with others when I so desire than play alone.

As long as social interaction is consensual and not forced I will play online, interact with lots of players, and very likely have a lot of fun doing it. Even (fully consensual) PvP, if a PvP mode with rules I can enjoy exists. This is what I hope SotA will offer.

The bit about opting out of the economy might require some extra explanation. I dislike shopping in real life; I tend to avoid going shopping as much as I can, to the point my real life crafting hobby was in part so I could use things I had at home to build what I needed rather than go shopping for it. Thus, any system in a game meant to simulate the experience of visiting bricks and mortar stores will automatically displease me, and I will do whatever is needed, to a reasonable degree, to avoid that experience.

I actually expect going for auto-sufficiency to be less efficient, to waste more time than just shopping for what I need, but it means doing something I enjoy — crafting — instead of something I dislike — shopping. So, for me, it's worth it, even though I don't actually plan to sell anything I craft.

I could handle the economy without many issues if doing so was hassle free and quick — which can be accomplished, for example, by having an easy to use central AH. This doesn't seem to be what the devs want, though; they want a meaningful shopping and selling experience, which means it will be exactly the kind of shopping experience I dislike the most, so I'm going to choose to avoid that experience instead.

(I hope the image isn't against the forum rules, I couldn't find anything against; BTW, where did the forum rules posts go? I had to look inside the PvP sub-forum to find one.)


Old school RPG player raises his hand. Or paw, as it might be.
BTW, I started playing RPGs far earlier than that. My old D&D books would be of legal age to drink, drive, or vote. Not to mention my old manuals for GURPS, Vampire, Paranoia, Rulemaster, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior, etc; I've literally read every single RPG book published where I live in the first decade after they started arriving, and quite a few that were never published here. My command of the English language is, to a large degree, due to reading RPG manuals and novels, since I didn't partake in formal English courses.

 

I'm with Owain as far as my preference for the existence of high end gear goes; I prefer when gear is only important in enabling players to do things, just like in the real world I need a screwdriver to take out screws, but without giving supernatural abilities. Like I said in another post, I prefer when a sword is a sword is a sword.

On the other hand, as soon as special, hard to get gear exists, I would rather never have the risk of ever losing it. Also, regardless of whether all gear is easily replaceable with identical copies, I will never participate in PvP where I'm expected to loot other players, or where I can be looted, for reasons that don't have much to do with actually replacing the gear.

 

It occurs to me that SotA will probably have to allow for this in order to allow single-player players to progress through the game. No point in having a single-player story when there's a boss monster requiring a. 20+ raid crew to fell gating off the last third of the plot.