PVP here, there, or everywhere? discussion

Just check the reviews of the current state of the game... those people.

 

@Vallo Yeah, well. Reviews. There haven't been many professional reviews and player comments, for the most part, are ill informed. SotA has taken a new development path with nothing to compare it to. Early Access, until now, has meant "Here's the game we designed. Now help us balance and debug." If people perceive SotA in this way then their reviews will be uninformed. While concepts and frameworks can and are criticized, criticizing the implementation of a half-built system is worthless to me.

 

What I'm reading is more there with a bit of voluntary here and everywhere? Sounds like more modes aren't desired. Personally I think there should be only two modes. Offline and MPO. A filter should be used in MPO for SPO and FO, which I think is what is actually being done - but this would make it achievable without the need for relogging.

I haven't played much in SPO or FO. My understanding is these modes will remove us from being seen and remove others from being seen, but if we still contribute to and benefit from the actions of others (such as participating in the general economy) it is weird in my opinion. FO and SPO should be completely different avatars and have no connection to MPO, again...in my opinion. I know the development effort to deal with this would not be worth the investment at this point.

I do not like the idea that people can benefit from PVP only zones in SPO and FO. That distorts the construct of the game design. I am typically all against restrictions artificially imposed on players except when it comes to risk versus reward. Personally I don't see how a player would ever be able to harvest in a PVP zone - as long as there is a player to engage you how can you ever get any harvesting done? Definitely designed for a group coordinated effort.

Logically it is not valid following the risk/reward construct to SPO it and harvest away. If it is valid then there should be a MP-NoAggro mode as well to let us roam around the game with everything not aggressive - we decide if we want to attack the MOBs - they never attack us or support each other, ever. Sound good? Not to me either. No risk should equal no reward. That is not to be misconstrued to think I support guarded nodes. I don't. I think the risk should be in getting to a node, not accessing it once you are there.

PVP only areas accessible in SPoffline? Sure! I hope they do something with the shardfalls and other PVP areas that make those areas more meaningful to SPo than just better resource harvesting results.

 

I believe there are plans to address this by reducing yields or eliminating some resources if entered in a non-pvp mode.

 

I think you inly have 30 days to claim or so when someone returns your items. If the "claim items" button is there, it means noone ransomed your stuff. During a ransom, the time to "pay ransom" is shorter and must be pain in like an hour or 2

 

Well hang on... everybody is in one world. Play style does not separate anybody. Selective Mulitplayer only draws in those who are most relevant to us.... so philosphically speaking all people are in the world and we only pay close attention to a select few at any given moment.

Last time I was at disneyland I only payed attention to a few people. I talked to maybe 20 people while I was there. There was probably several hundred thousand people in that area, but in "my instance of reality" I only interacted with a handful.

Selective Multiplayer to my understanding {*due to the limitations of modern technology*} is a cost effective tool that enables all players to be on one server instead of breaking the game up into separate servers or shards. So it isn't a segregation tool it is a unification tool.

The difference is that players in the online environment can choose to play SPO or FPO to narrow down the number of people they encounter to fit their needs, but ultimately even those players live in the same world with the same economy, and the same number of housing lots etc. However in Mulitplayer Online why should PvP players be segregated from anybody else? The game already has an explaination for that... an over protective android that has extraordinary powers seems to think it is its place to protect us from attacking ourselves, but thankfully players have a choice to reject this over protective/self-righteous machine.

*********************************************

ON A SIDE NOTE but still relevant to PvP... (MY PERSONAL BELIEF IN THIS GAME IN SEEK OF VIRTUE):

So as a PvPer "in this game" I can say I'm sort of glad that full loot isn't available since items take a week to make from scratch. However I'm not personally a fan of this machine and if it is up to me as avatar I would love to deactivate that entity. I don't think anybody can persue virtue while being judged by some external machine instead of our own heart. I think she's the antithisis to virtue since it removes it from within us to an exteral judge, but that's my personal belief today. Don't wreck your character by taking my advice. lol What we believe can change. However I totally think this character is fantastic to have in an Ultma style game and I wouldn't want them to make it any differently. I'm glad the oracle interfears with our lives like this including PvP because it is totally relevant to this game... And other avatars might take a totally opposite point of view and that's fine too. Just like Selective Multiplayer facilitates relevance based upon some sort of equation or algorithm.

So having the protection of the Oracle is an awesome Idea and is just right for Shroud of the Avatar. It might bother some players looking for pure PvP, but I think it should upset these people in this game. There is more to this game than just open pvp, there is a living world out in New Britania, and this Oracle is a well thought out entity, and if it bothers you maybe you should consider what's wrong with it not the game mechanic. If you don't like the Oracle, then join the club, but it isn't a design flaw it is a social/religious matter in this world of new Britannia.

 

If I would take your disneyland example... in SotA we would both be in Disneyland but my rollecoaster ride and yours would be totally different, even though we paid the same fee. I agree it should be like you said, but it isn't like that currently.

 

Here's a real life example of this game mechanic living in the psyche of the worldly teaching:

To be honest my disneland and your disneyland is the same place, but we do not have a mighty Oracle interfering with our freewill and judging us for not following the rules. However some people believe that there is exactly such an Oracle (called by many different names) even in our world.

I know from personal experience (taking a worldview/legalistic belief system very seriously, and <ridgedly>), that there are many people in this world acting as if there was an Oracle or a Guardian, watching over their lives, and they are constantly trying to seek its will or build up a ballance of good karma to avoid bad juju or make some sort of good thing happen. They look at the chaos and think that some how if they pray more, give more, do more good then the universe is going to recognize that and pay them back good or bad based upon obediance to some sort of formula to life or religious code. Everybody, EVERYBODY I know who takes these beliefs to its ultimate conclusion suffers a great deal mentally over it. It hinders us from doing what we want. Either because they think they will be condemned to hell or be reincarnated as a spider... ??? fact remains they live the best they can so that when they die they can receive the blessing of life.

So belief like this is just like the oracle. If what we believe is not true do we want to know it? It takes a very brave soul to question certain legalistic frightful beliefs.

The Blessing of the Oracle is just like that to me. While here on Earth the boundaries are all mental, the oracle's boundries in SotA are hard coded. Still SotA is a virual world, we live in what we believe to be reality, but not everybody's "reality" is the same here on earth because the religious rules some people live by are hard coded... Think about that a bit. I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong about the game mechanic, but I am interested in exposing that many people live on earth as if such a mechanic actually existed ON EARTH when it doesn't. So game mechanic or not we will encounter this exact thing no matter what.

 

oh ok cool. I like that.

 

@Steve D. I'll add that some people even believe that the law keeps us safe (or the fear of punishment). In reality most people are decent simply because it takes too much effort to be otherwise.

I do like your critical thinking but keep in mind belief systems can empower us to commit as well as prevent us from committing harmful actions. Belief is a strong suppression system for some and for others it motivates them to become more evil than many of us would imagine.

It is but one non-tangible item that factors into the spiritual, mental, and physiological "stuff" that makes us human. Belief can be easily broken/suspended for many reasons including emotion, disease (ever noticed that the word actually means apart/away from ease?), or ethical dilemma.

 

Hi all
Just been reading this post and I like some of it, but a lot of it is not making sense based on what we want and how the Devs want to do it.
The 1st thing id say is completely a bad idea is that what you all are trying to reward players for going into a PVP area, buy giving them extra resources, better drops or some type of reward,
this is so not even a Tempting offer, its plane DUMB, Ok look at it though my eyes, " I'm a crafter, I'm going to a PVP zone were every PVPer in the game is siting there waiting for me to come in to farm resources
so they can kill me, " Really do you think I want to walk into a ambush like that, that is the worst idea I ever heard. No crafter is going into a pvp only zone fully knowing there dead on site. lmao
There is nothing you can offer to lure us into a ambush because we know were not going to get it. And the funny part is you don't even have to do any work with a system like that
'you just sit back and wait for that crafter to show up, and kill us. Really!!!!!!

Ok how about idea #2
We make the hole game a pvp area with the exceptions of NPC Towns, and then POTS can decide yes or no weather they are pvp or not. (and maybe even NPC towns can pick and chooses sides were they are safe havens to some and traps for others who knows.)
Then we take the hole reward system that you all have come up with, ( I think its great buy the way) and implement it to the players that willingly flag PVP.
so when I go to the Oracle and I remove his protection I'm now flagged PVP and I get a buff, to be rewarded with better resources drops, enhanced loot or what ever the
reward is for flagging PVP, now this does not effect the non pvpers at all they can go any were they want with no risk, and the pvpers can go every they want and I'm sure they will bump into each other
in pvp pots, and different adventuring areas.
Now as far as the lil old crafter that flags to take advantage of the buff, come find me if you can....I got a chance to live I can go any were to farm my resources and I'm not walking into a ambush.
we can all run around the entire game and play it as we would like.

just a thought

 

I prefer idea number 2 as well. Combined with a solid faction system so flagging makes sense like in Star Wars Galaxies. But devs already said they dont plan that. I would also agree to your first idea..Generally as long as there is an advantage to flag urself, it makes sense to do it... and people will do it. Conflict will be created.. game gets interesting again.

 

I brought this up a while back in this thread : https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...will-shroud-have-factions-npc-factions.42879/
Of course there was some pushback but I think there is some great discussion in this thread.

 

it's not primarily that crafters will go there, but adventurous gatherer's and PvPers, who will fight to get the resources because there's PvP involved and a profitable venture to take advantage of as a reward. It's not design to lure in crafters, but instead to give a dangerous fun experience with a suitable reward for those who want it. And as a gatherer who doesnt mind danger, its something i am taking advantage of and enjoy.

It would also make the "forced PvP mode" zones moot, as there would be nothing there to fight for.

I also like the idea of boosted loot and stuff if flagged PvP, but a big chunk of resources coem from PvE challenges like Mines and Dungeons which arent multiplayer instances, and would have to have any PvP buffs deactivated for all of these scenes too.

There's also PvP control points on the way which are likely going to do something PvPers will enjoy.

 

Having the resource nodes generate more resources in a shard fall or other special PvP zone entices players to venture into those zones. This is good for PvP for the sake that it lures players into these particularly dangerous zones. If just flagging for PvP did that, then these zones would lose some of its attraction since that bonus would be at every single remote forest, cavern, or mountain area in the game.

I suppose it might be ok if it was just a bonus to meticulous gathering for being flagged PvP, but resource nodes and spawn rates need to be higher in shardfalls for the sake of attracting people. However I do see what you mean about PvPers have a tendency to get thrashed more often, and they suffer greater loss upon death paying ransoms and getting items looted.

 

@Steve D.

This is what I'm talking about, this does not lure me into your zone, because I know I'm not making out of your zone with the loot. this is a huge misconception. I'm dead as soon as I walk in or shortly after I get there. Some Pkers zone in do a quick run though and .............plink the crafter.
Unless I get a bunch of my friends together and we go in in force and try to hold the zone long enough to gather resources and get out. For the few extra resources not worth the trouble. The zones are too small there is not enough places for me to go to evade the Pker. This is not Uo were you ventured into Fel for some better drops and nodes, Fel was a hole world not a few pvp zones. That's why I brought up making the hole world a pvp area, the only thing would be are you flagged or Not, then I can flag and I can try to evade all you Pkers while I try to get the better loot and there's a hole world out there for me to maneuver in and if you catch me....ahhh chances are you going to kill me...plink the crafter. But it will be a great game of cat and mouse. I'm all in!!!! you all are converting a crafter to the PVP world.... this is sounding exciting.


Now just for my own knowledge, what are the current PVP restrictions in SOTA, I know I have to be Flagged, but if I'm flagged were can you attack me? Do I have to be in a PVP specific zone, or can I be in some adventuring area and get killed?

 

too many modes... too complicated for players, too complicated for code.

 

I think this is actually a really important discussion, because it's true that what we have now is really only pleasing non-PvPers and the PvPers are being left with a really sub-standard model.

I liked UO PvP even though I did not participate in it except mostly to run away (and kill thieves who didn't really fight back; justice!) but I also remembered hating when I lost all my gear, sometimes important gear, and I can see how that could drive some people to think "I don't want to be part of this anymore". So while UO's style is still my preference, I get it.

As much as I didn't like how WoW usurped a lot of UO's freedom, it kind of got PvP right. Duels are super straightforward by consent only (and this is mostly the best thing we have here), and there were different zones that were either PvP or not. There's no such thing as being "flagged PvP" so that PvP-anywhere works, and nobody cares - they just respect the rules. There is an order vs chaos thing, but the guards really take care of that in "non-PvP" areas.

An approach that's more similar to WoW's might be the answer; though that means opening up "contested territory", aka PvP areas. That isn't too different to what UO had either - "guard protection". Guild warfare (chaos vs order) might work in safe zones if anyone can just call the guards in those safe zones, and those guards swiftly respond.

 

Personally I don't understand how PVP can be any good without actual factions. Order versus Chaos with a few other factions mixed in would make it fun and interesting. As it stands now it looks like it just going to be individual leaderboards for some types of accomplishments. I would probably do really well on the "most deaths" board!

 

Just go and take a good look in the pvp Forum.
Or ask @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos he can tell you a thing or two about ideas getting screamed down by the Crowd.