Reconsider the Vault Scheme - Changing the title is not creating a new item.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lord Andernut, Apr 23, 2019.

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  1. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Rares used to be sort of one of a kind items. Though we were fairly understanding when they started changing features slightly on pledge rewards or past rewards/reskinned them and sold them again as a different item.

    Now they are going to sell these items again as different items and the only thing they changed was... the name?

    Whether it's a yellow airship or a lemon airship or an airship replica, it's the same item. Whether it's a Grim Reaper mask or a grim reaper mask or a grim reaper mask replica, it's the same thing.

    And why are players who paid for expiring pledge rewards protected? Why is your promise to players with a pledge somehow more important to keep to you than your promise to those who supported telethons for rares, expiring bundles, "last chance exclusives" from the store, seasonal rares from the store, stretch goal expirations. Why is the expiration promise to these players not important, why are "last chance exclusives" not exclusive?

    Players bought these items, some of them for a LOT of money, because you were expiring them, or already had, with the understanding, and the verbal promise in text, on camera, that these items were going to be "rares! rares! rares!".

    It seems to me that you are not only re-selling these items, having changed nothing but the title (which when someone uses a house, or wears equipment, doesn't even display - and for decorations you have to get close enough to see the title is slightly different than the original title), but selling them at a price to undercut the rares market that you created, and even undercutting the price you sold them at as the "LAST CHANCE!!!!!" to get that item. You encouraged players to collect these items, giving Portalarium money to collect these items, for the rares!rares!rares!

    A grey donkey or a greyish donkey or a grey donkey replica are all the same thing when you look at it. Renaming an item slightly is not changing the item.

    Players like myself who had collections, enjoyed buying some of those "you had to be there in 2013 to get this or trade for it later in the player market!" type items. Cloak collections, pet collections, whatever, to develop museums or show off striking visually unique collections in our homes or lawns or castles.

    Rares rares rares! Was a frequent refrain in telethons/livestreams/hangouts. Get them now before they're gone forever.

    Now you declare to collectors that they don't matter, that your promises don't matter. You sell the items again, apparently cheaper than the first time around. You didn't change the item, you just change the title.... barely.

    Reconsider your vault scheme. Limit items in quantity, or limit the items by their price. Consult current players before rushing into this vault scheme and releasing it and not being able to take it back. Consult your players that support you. Build your game the way you want, but if you feel you are agile and can accept feedback from your players who support you, consult your players before going back on your expiration promise and see how to work a compromise between raising funds and honouring your playerbase.

    Encouraging a player market, selling rares, expiring those rares which will "never be sold again" and then selling them again, undercutting the player market, your playerbase, is a short-term gain for long-term pain, it's a spiral downwards. I enjoyed collecting rares, I enjoyed displaying them and showing people my collection, I don't understand why Portalarium feels it is appropriate to raise funds on the idea of expiring items and a second-hand market of traders and collectors, and then without consultation, to un-expire those items and start selling them again. With 7 letters added to the title of the item, which you won't see on worn equipment or housing, and most of the time wouldn't notice (or care).
     
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  2. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Some Cliffs Notes:
    1) Re-Releasing expired items with a new title is not honouring players who supported you by buying those items as they expired.
    2) Why is a promise to pledgers and their items important? Why is it not important to players who bought in the store, bought the season rares, the last chance exclusives, the stretchgoals, bought other kickstarters and games for cross-over items, supported the seedinvest, took part in charity drives, bought bundles?
    3) Hold back the vault and consider it a little bit longer how best to introduce it.
    4) Listen to player feedback, consider it and be seen to consider it, and change how you approach the vault release.
     
  3. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    If they would at least slap another color on the items.
    But no. Not even that.
     
  4. kl4nk

    kl4nk Avatar

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    Whats port reasons again for re-selling those "exclusive" items? Give new players a chance at them? Is that it? I must be missing something because to me it just look like greed.
     
  5. Lord Andernut

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    Selling things to players is not greed, it's a free to play game but not a free to make game. They need to pay employees to make the things for us to play, it's not greed. It's low hanging fruit to sell expired items because they already made these items once...and selling them again is "free" for dev-time. But it IS disrespectful to the player-base who bought expiring items, and it is a short-term gain at the cost of alienating the part of the player-base who enjoys collecting or displaying rare items.

    I'm convinced there is a better way to approach this, and a focus-group might be a good start. Engaging in some discussion, or even just appearing to engage in it, would go a long way to appeasing some people who are still standing there wondering "did they really just say they were selling expired items again in the store?"
     
  6. Gorthyn

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    I don't think it's greed as such - more desperation to raise more income to help keep the good ship SOTA afloat for at least a little while longer.
     
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  7. Vladamir Begemot

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    Here's a better way:

    Just bring the store homes back and price them at 2x what they expired at.

    Don't screw with the rest of it.

    We need the homes, expiring those without anything to replace them was stupid. Most of the other things have lots of alternatives.

    (And yes I was stupid for having bought anything that was expiring.)

    Here's the best way:

    Make some new Viking and Shogun homes and stop expiring stuff.
     
  8. Titania Xylia

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    Money. Telethons are way down. Gotta pay those bills. We may not get to episode 2 at this pace let alone 5. (Just guessing; I know nothing)

    I totally agree with reskinning these items with different colors and textures to honor the players that actually invested in this game and made it possible. Not reskinning promised exclusives sounds dangerous.

    Sadly. This move isn't going to work. Nobody wants the old stuff. The rares market has been dead for a year now. This game has got to survive on merit now not exclusivity. New content needs to get pumped into the game and the content needs to work. Sadly, none of the new stuff has even begun to work properly and the old stuff is a complete shambles. We have a few zones that work: UT, The Rise and the mines. They break those and that's all she wrote, but is it enough to keep playing them day after day for another year?

    I hope they stop any new mechanic development and fix episode 1 and fix the player made dungeons. New player content is getting worse over time as new fixes come in that break the old stuff. Chasing unity patches has been necessary, but disastrous for the game. The dungeons are close to being finished and they're a good IGG sink, but we need a good reason to make a dungeon like loot, experience and fresh content. Polish PvE (even PvP) and the dungeons and we'll have enough to build on to carry us to episode 2.

    Items without a game to play them in is a fool's errand.
     
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  9. infernal

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    back when they where selling blood bundles someone asked on a telethon for them to sell the individual items they said maybe they eventually would, the bundles sold out were not expired. most expired items where not advertised as never being available again but for the few that were they should not put in the vault.
     
  10. Weins201

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    Blood item where for those who bought "Stock" in Port not a bundle. Those item will be a last ditch item as well as the Gold items. If you see them come up it is their last gasp

    Sorry yes Blood items and Gold are truly seperate items I forgot sorry
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  11. infernal

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    no they were not they were for blood charity sold in the make a difference store.
     
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  12. Weins201

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    ahh yes correction sorry you are correct.
     
  13. Thxforthememories

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    Didn't you read Starr's post? A tooltip makes the items different; thus we have not reason to be upset or question this decision. /sarcasm. I do wish you good luck getting an adjustment here, I admire the attempt because your reasoning makes perfect sense to me.

    1. Defining Tooltip: Items that are re-released into The Vault will have a tooltip that defines them as re-released and therefore different from the original items. This tooltip will say something like "Vault Edition" (wording not final).

    edit - I wouldn't get your hopes up though. I know you remember this Lord Andernut, but there was a time when you could only get several items from high end bundles that cost thousands of dollars, and then one day they started selling them individually for pennies. They got plenty of feedback there and didn't think twice about it. Port does not care about the rares market - I mean, they do when they try to sell you rare things up front, but when those bills come in they will do what they please. Just keep that in mind for any future item that is touted as "rare" (Lord of the Isle items, I am looking at you!), and save your money until Port caves and sells it for pennies later on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  14. Antrax Artek

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    To be honest i think that the new players thing is just an excuse, also i don't think port is doing that for their profit, I'm ready to bet instead that behind this vault thing there is the whining of some spoiled but influential players who want at all costs to get the missing pieces from their collection.

    The same selfish players who are pushing the fun out of SotA making it a super easy game, based on the isolation of players, private farming/grinding and without any kind of competition and interaction but only greed and selfishness, literally destroying the SotA's biggest selling point, the MMORPG aspect for their personal whims.

    This is just my theory, but considering how much this small circle of players has influenced decisions over time that have literally ruined the game for most of the population, more than just a theory it seems a sad reality.

    I still hope that the developers will become aware that the demands of these influential people are digging the grave of this project before it's too late.
     
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  15. kl4nk

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    Not that i need to justify my opinion, but. Being paid twice for a job you did once is consider "greed" in my mind. I understand they trying to stay afloat with low income. But im sure they could come out with new assets to sell to players w/o breaking promises already made.
     
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  16. Spoon

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    Yupp, that would have been a good move.


    Very much agreed.
    Given a Freemium business model then it isn't just dangerous it is a predictable long term disaster.


    There isn't even a tooltip anymore if the notes are correct:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f.../release-65-instructions-feedback-post.154160
    only a name change.



    Correct.
    There are lots of items that were never sold as rare/expired. Including some of the later housing which was the major reasoning for players requesting Vault items.
    Players could have easily helped them list hundreds of items that could be brought back without this drama. Where only reserving the pledge stuff and nothing more is definitely going to be fuel on the fire.
     
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  17. Lord Andernut

    Lord Andernut Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    I asked and was told privately they would not be selling Blood items, because I only wanted the blood items from those bundles for my museum. I eventually bought a Blood Bundle to supply some of the items I did not have.

    The items in the Bundles were referred to as Bundles exclusives, and yes, I was pretty peeved that I paid to upgrade from Town to City to get the rarer pet in a couple of bundles, and they later sold them below 10$. However they DID expire all the bundle content after releasing it in the store. Which is why some people complain about current housing selections.
     
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  18. Lord Andernut

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  19. Greyfox

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    If LA is complaining SOTA is in serious trouble. LA is a man who always defined a positive attitude during any interaction I've witnessed. My suspicion, selling previously expired rares is one last cash grab before we are eating our family pets due to starvation.

    The in game economy is in hospice care. Without a functional economy an MMO can't survive. Are any of the Developers able and/or willing to make the necessary changes to the game?
     
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  20. Synergy Blaize

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    Wow, all of the above comments, are truly depressing regarding Shrouds future longevity.... :(
    I am not savvy enough about the past/early days etc, to completely comprehend why there is all this angst & negativity...

    In my limited understanding, supporting the Start Up/Crowd Funding, was to help "fund" development of a Game idea.

    I DO understand that some players invested thousands of RL dollars in the past to support the future development of this game.

    In my understanding, Shroud wasn't launched as an investment opportunity, so Crowd Funders could cash in on their support/investment after helping to bring an idea/concept, to fruition.
    Backers helped to Crowd Fund this Game into a reality from a mere idea...
    People chose to spend money to support the development & Future of the Shroud concept... which relied totally & completely on Crowd Funding & support of early backers.
    This assisted Shroud to develop into a playable game from merely a concept & helped Shroud to evolve into reality.

    I offer my sincere & heartfelt Thanks to all of those early supporters,
    I truly acknowledge & respect you all, as without You, we would not be still here now.

    Maybe the early publicity was hopeful, ambitious & perhaps, a little over-ambitious?
    Maybe the Crystal Ball back then was skewiff & misguided?
    I just don't know...

    But right now, Today, it is, what it is....

    I genuinely feel that Shroud is at the stage, where the Team needs to do whatever is required to push this game forward somehow.... to ensure it survives & endures...
    Shroud definitely needs to find a way to move forward & attract & KEEP New Players ensure its Future.
    This is why @Chris /Atos, spends countless hours doing Twitch Streaming (In His OWN Personal Time) = HE wants to help Shroud to move forward.

    If the "Lights go Out", everything we have ALL purchased (BIG or small) to support Shrouds Crowd Funded development along the way,
    will simply disappear into a Black Hole & will just be a mere memory for us all. :(

    I support whatever the Team decides is needed to keep moving forward, because if Shroud "folds"....
    NOBODY will have anything. as the Game will quite simply NOT be here anymore.
    & that would be truly sad....
     
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