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Scout quest for arcane catalysts now one per day !!!!! - REVERT

Discussion in 'Release 54 QA Feedback Forum' started by Anvar, May 28, 2018.

  1. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Agree @Hornpipe
    I was thrilled when they added the catalysts cause it was something lucrative I could do if I was careful without necessarily white knuckling the keyboard or parking on a CP for hours, something more challenging than the usual T5 grind but less potential for massive xp loss doing the Rise/Krul and screwing up. I don't think a million XP in two weeks is too much at all, even for crafting, you can get a good 60-80k mining per hour even at lower levels WITHOUT double and I spent far more 'hours' doing sieges, looking for sieges, running for my life in sieges, etc. I really feel like we put in the time to earn what the game offered. I argue the 'money printing' excuse as well, not because of marketplace stuff but because really everything you do in this game is printing money. You klll things, you take their stuff, you sell it. That definition applies to everything the only difference here is that the delivery mechanism is standing at an npc turning things in instead of standing at a vendor selling them.

    I suppose though it IS sensible to change it, if players are gonna end up banned for turning in quest items in quantities larger than expected.... *grumble* *still can't log in* *sulks a bit*
     
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  2. Armeleon Vesaz

    Armeleon Vesaz Avatar

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    I fail to see the logic here. How is this "money printing" but killing and looting monsters in general is not? It is true that turning in this quest creates gold and experience, but so does killing and looting everything else. It's fairly simple, you add an extra step to the kill -> loot -> sell process to make it kill -> loot -> sell & turn in quest. It is simply a matter of balance, not fundamentally different.

    The repeatable quest adds a reward of 500 experience (1k during double xp) and 33 gold for killing and looting a Siege Engineer. That's all it does. It also requires an extra minor time investment as in turning in the quest.

    Whether or not this needs to be toned down I'll leave up to the devs, but completely ruining the new mechanic is just a pointless step backwards in the efforts to introduce meaningful repeatable content to the late game.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  3. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    Well, I suppose that we have to see those rewards as a bonus on top of the gold and the experience we already get when fighting the sieges.

    But still, the total we get with sieges and catalysts is not unreasonable compared to the incurred risk. And still, the AOE mechanics are far more broken as they are to the point that those who use them properly can earn real money (and gold, and experience) just by regularly using three keys on their keyboard.
     
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  4. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I agree with you there, that the 'reward' system for player's time expenditure is fully out of whack. I think that goes beyond the scope of this particular issue though - what a player can earn, achieve, etc. in say, an hour of gameplay is highly varied by where they go and what they are doing, and the strongest emphasis has always been on improving outcomes for the highest levelled players leaving few alternatives for the non-elite and zero alternatives excluding combat. Sieges were a decent alternative, so clearly this has to be stamped out immediately. So in a way yes this issue brings up problems with the core methodology and reward mechanic, but I think that's a much larger issue to tackle than can be done here.
     
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  5. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    You can also add this : As long as quests rewards and number will be inferior to what you get with simple grind, much people will feel like they have to grind in this game. Now the catalyst repeatable quest is not really a quest as it is (it's simply about killing people and bring stuff, then it's "fedex grind") but one could eventually add some complexity (not difficulty, complexity) to this quest in order to improve it.

    For exemple : use catalysts to craft something. You have to get the fitting recipes and chose what to craft with it. For exemple, craft a real catapult and sell it to some warlord in town (or put it as a decoration in a player owned town) ? Chose your buyer, if you craft a catapult or a balist, etc... It's just an idea among many possible others. The warlords could refuse to buy if not given the proper arguments (in the form of random questions/answers with correct answers depending on whether it is a good guy or a bad guy).
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  6. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    So I heard that people got suspended for turning too much catalysts into rewards.

    Now I have more than one thousand on me with two options :
    - wait for the new release and slowly turn them into rewards 6 by 6, each day, for almost one year, and never fight a siege during that time in order to NOT restock (as long as you get 18 for each siege).
    - turn them all immediately into rewards and get suspended.

    I mean, those items are not tradable and I fought hard to get what I have. And now I must just let it go ? With absolutely no reward ? I could live with that, but is that fair ? Is this for real ?

    @DarkStarr @Lord British
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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  7. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Keeper of NPCs

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    We have triggers that go off and temporarily suspend people if they earn an absolutely ridiculous amount of XP or gold within a period of time. It's a check to ensure that an exploit doesn't kill the game's economy and should never be encountered in normal gameplay (turning in thousands of stockpiled XP items for a reward is not normal gameplay).

    Checked in a change today that changes the requirement for each turn-in of catalysts from 6 to 18 and increases the XP and gold reward substantially (x4, rather than x3).
     
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  8. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    That makes sense.

    Still, there is potentialy an underlying problem with that.
    If the scouts will take 18 for each siege, it's ok.
    But if you are talking about 18 each day, it means that we will get catalysts stock as long as we fight more than one siege per day alone (or two sieges per day when in a duo, etc...).

    Is it possible to have a count per siege ? Or maybe to create a recipe that would use the remaining catalysts for crafting something, or to use those for some other repeatable quest?

    I know, the problem is not easy for you either. But repeatable quests are probably an important mechanic for the game. Having trash in the inventory just because you can't get rid of it (without having to destroy it) doesn't sound right.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  9. Draugur2

    Draugur2 Avatar

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    I think that's a very reasonable solution in my opinion. I also get what you are saying about still stock piling them, if you decide to do a bunch of sieges, while you are solo you will end up having more then you can turn in. Only advice I could say is if you don't have a lot of time to play in a day, talk to the oracle then find a quick siege and do a turn in. Thanks Lum!
     
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  10. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    This is not the most elegant solution, but yes, it is better than nothing.

    Now stop finding excuses for them! I want a recipe to make my own siege catapult!



    Thank you @Lum the Mad
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  11. Anvar

    Anvar Avatar

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    @Lum the Mad
    That atleast is more sensible but you guys as usual have totally missed the point when it comes to gold per h / xp per hour.

    The whole game is broken when it comes to that, 9k xp = 2 clockwork cats on normal xp, hmm about 30 seconds to kill....
    and 200g, thats approx 1 minute of farming a TIER 1 zone as theyre better loot in terms of pure g/h than higher tiers.
     
  12. Hornpipe

    Hornpipe Avatar

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    Yes, but you still have to take in account the normal experience and gold coins you actually loot on engineers and cultists corpse on top of the quest reward, in sieges.

    Also @Lum the Mad just said that the 9k XP would be turned into 12k XP (if I understood well).
     
  13. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    Do we know what is objectionable in handing in the Arcane Catalyst. Is it the gold, is it the Adv XP is it the producer XP or combination.

    Personally i just wanted the producer XP, so if it gold. I would be happy if for example it halved the gold hand in for every one you handed in the (earth) day until handing it give you zero gold, but still give the XP.


    Regards
    Spung
     
  14. Ryodin Stormwind

    Ryodin Stormwind Avatar

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    Seems ridiculous to suspend players for turning in the catalysts in bulk rather than spending time after each siege to turn in. I hope any players suspended for this were quickly reinstated with an apology. I've been doing this myself, but not on that level - usually turn in 100 catalysts at a time or so. If they restrict this to one turn in per day, then I likely won't even bother with sieges yet again...
     
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  15. Draugur2

    Draugur2 Avatar

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    It was a bot to catch ppl exploiting. Almost all games have this. Earn to much exp/gold in a certain amount of time and you get autobanned. Have to wait for someone to look at the data before they get unbanned.
     
  16. Ryodin Stormwind

    Ryodin Stormwind Avatar

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    Yes, I understand it was an automated system that suspended them. However, the games I've worked on, the mechanic works a bit different than simply looking at gold/xp income in a time window and banning them if it exceeds a threshold. Instead, we simply flagged them for immediate review with audit logs of their actions readily available. I obviously don't know the internals of Portalarium's staff and systems, but it seems fairly naive to ban first and ask questions later. That can leave a bad taste in the customers mouth.

    With a complete audit trail, it can be trivial to reverse and remove the offending items/credits/xp from the game economy with the push of a button if it is determined that the flagged participant was indeed exploiting the system - even if they have changed hands multiple times.
     
  17. Nikko

    Nikko Avatar

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    I am glad that the devs seem to be fixing this slightly, but I have to say I am a little upset that someone can get suspended for spending HOURS and HOURS collecting these, and then turn them all in at once... This is the players prerogative! How is it not "normal game-play?!" The person spent the time to get them, and the archers that drop them are not simple Tier 1 mobs either. As long as a person is not using a script of some sort to turn them in this should NEVER happen. I can't even believe I am reading this stuff! ugh... People are going to flip OUT when this goes live.
     
  18. Ryodin Stormwind

    Ryodin Stormwind Avatar

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    The worst part is that the "fix" isn't a fix at all. This is a bandaid used to cover up a bigger problem.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  19. Nikko

    Nikko Avatar

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    It should AT LEAST allow us to turn in double the 18. 36 seems MUCH better for a day limit. I was so excited to do a ton of sieges this Summer, and now, once again, it is just not going to be worth the while. We'll kill each of the Cabalists 30 times, and then just get tired of the thing. At least as it was, there was a good reward for every attempt, because lord knows the reward for killing the Cabalists themselves is a complete joke. So unhappy about this.
     
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  20. Spungwa

    Spungwa Avatar

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    Oh and on the banning mechanic, that is a very bad customer experience to auto ban the account.

    To my mind it should just be flagged, XP is something you can always remove from the player at a later date after an investigation highlighted by the auto mechanism.
    Gold they could trade to a different player and it would be hard to retrospectively remove (the person they traded it to could have traded in good faith). Instead add a mechanic to the game that stops the player spending or trading gold until the investigation is complete. Allow them to continue to collect gold so the innocent are not penalised. It is then likely the gold is still on the character to be removed, if they did trading it away as they where gaining it before auto detect then just put their gold value into negative. Note the auto ban does not stop this either so no worse.
    This is quite a punishment as you will need to grind/sell lots of stuff to get back to zero just to buy reagents and stuff. It makes the character useless for gold farming.

    The only exception is i would auto ban "visitors" to stop exploiters using disposable emails and accounts.

    Regards
    Spung
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018