SotA Fishing 2019

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Hemswal The Descended, Jan 23, 2019.

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  1. Hemswal The Descended

    Hemswal The Descended Avatar

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    Hey folks! I made a post about fishing back in 2017 which did get some love but now that fishing has changed and improved so much since then, I'd like to revisit my old post and say a few new things.

    Old post:
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/fishing.101522/#post-888076

    TLDR, scroll down to list!

    Not sure what B. Cotton's forum tag is, someone give me a hand with that please! But, I did drop him an email about a week ago about this and haven't seen a reply yet. I'm sure the guy is overwhelmed with work! But, I want to get my ideas down regardless of busy schedules.

    I'm sure some of my ideas will overlap with other people's and be uninteresting to others. That's fine and rest assured, I don't mean to step on anyones toes. But, please keep discussion civil. I'm not making this post to have a huge debate. Just want to fill out another wish list on the wish list sub forum! :)

    Firstly, let me say that I've done an enormous amount of fishing before and after the big fishing update. I had Fishing well above GM (I've since lowered my base fishing to GM) and bait recovery GMed before any new additions to the tree were made. I GMed it without any help from a guidance potion or another player with fishing GM. I raised it raw. A bunch of you know how much of a pain that is. The point is, I'm dedicated. Since the new portions of the tree were added, I GMed the rest of it as well.

    [​IMG]


    If given the opportunity, I can help make this particular system even better as it progresses. I'm extremely happy with the progress so far. I know quite a bit about fishing in fresh, brackish, and salt water. As a day 1 player, UO player, and an even longer time RL fisherman, I'm in a unique position to provide some significant and useful feedback and design suggestions.

    I've been fly fishing, used lures, live bait, and cut bait. I've used a cast net, various rods, several crab traps. I've been shark fishing (and caught sharks). I've surf fished and smoked blue fish the same day as catching them. I've caught skates and stingrays. I have even caught a bioluminescent jellyfish (No, I'm not kidding) the freakin' jelly fish gave off light on it's own and it was incredible. So, yeah! And that's not even all of it. I could go on for hours talking about fishing trips and varying amounts of success.

    While I do believe the changes are going in the right direction, I do have some issues with the current design and feel of the fishing system. I realize it isn't done, but I hope to offer some input on the direction.

    List:

    1. Plain water vs a "Fishing Spot" (water with bubbles coming up)

    I've fished a LOT in every type of water, including lava. I've fished in the bubble spots for the increased % chance to catch something. In the bubble spots I sometimes see 80-90% vs the 50-70ish I see everywhere else. Yet, even in these fishing spots, I don't seem to get any significant variance in results. I still catch the same common and uncommon fish at roughly the same rate. I don't recall ever seeing a rare fish come from one of the bubble spots. Others have claimed otherwise, this is just my experience.

    2. Likelihood of a fish being caught based on a seemingly arbitrary % (insert what is often referred to as "Port Math" here)

    I've been the defender of "Port Math" on occasion. But, in the case of fishing, I'm not on board with it. At best, it's misleading and at worst, it's flat out wrong. A better understanding OR a more polished experience is in order here. Just my humble opinion.

    3. Chance to catch a certain type of fish based on time of day and tide (or lack thereof?)


    I'm not sure this is a thing. I do hope it's a thing in the future if it isn't now. Not only would this give the entire experience a new level of depth, but I believe it may tie in well with the talks of "Celestial Events" that I've heard you guys talk about on Livestreams a few times.

    4. Missing bait types that might be considered crucial by some amateur - professional fisherman.

    Guys, GUYS! Seriously, you gotta believe me on this one. Cut bait, and whole Bait fish is a big deal in salt water. Basically, chunks of fish flesh/partial fish/whole fish on a hook (or hooks) are tossed in the water to attract and hopefully catch a larger fish. The idea is that a fish will see some fresh meat and possibly some blood, and think, HEY! Easy meal for me! Woo! Then they bite the hook and they become your meal instead.

    Also, shrimp are a very common bait in salt water. Possible the most common. After shrimp would probably be squid or mullet. But, honestly, the bait used can be very influenced by whatever type of fish are running in the area at that time. There are even specific worms that you can fish in salt water with. (side note, you can fish with shrimp in fresh water too and actually catch fish but mileage may vary) shrimp can be used alive or frozen as bait. shrimp shrimp shrimp!! There's also sardine, herring, and blood worms. The list keeps going for a while. You get the point.

    For fresh water, we need some earth worms and night crawlers! We need chicken livers for catching catfish (or some other "stink bait") Crayfish are also a great fresh water bait!

    I could go on for hours about bait. There are effective lures for salt, fresh, and brackish (fetid? I guess replaces brackish) water as well. But, that's another story.

    5. Realism vs Immersion. (This is a game and should feel like one. Work should be rewarded)

    As you can see, I've done a lot of fishing in game. See pictures below:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The fish I haven't processed, vendors, or simply destroyed:
    [​IMG]
    Of course, hundreds of them are stacked or processed into meat as well.

    This doesn't even account for the hundreds, nay, 1000+ fish I caught before the fishing update. This isn't meant as a bragging post either. There are people with far more impressive catches than me. But, those people are far more lucky than me. Actually, many of them, and probably the majority of them, haven't even fished a fraction of the time I have and yet, have the RNG-luck to catch the fancy big ones. This is frustrating at best. Hard work should be rewarded within a system (especially in a game). Otherwise, burn out will occur. I've done all the "tricks" and used all the special baits.

    pale leech>drudge leech>blood leech>shark and so on. But, no. No luck for me.

    In reality, fishing is called fishing for a reason. You often put bait on a hook, throw out your line, and hope for the best. You fish but do not catch. If you always caught something, it would be called catching instead. I'm not suggesting there should be no effort involved. I'm only suggesting that since this is a game, effort should be rewarded and not just with the same common stuff over and over, especially when the common thing that you catch has nearly no value to speak of. On the other side of the coin, in reality, you can actually rely on predictable behavior from schooling fish in the ocean, structures, shade, and feeding areas in brackish and fresh water. Fresh water has an even easier way to catch fish. You just go to where they spawn and they'll bite nearly anything.



    6. Existing baits not giving reasonable bonuses.

    Hoppers? What? Cool idea for a bait but nothing special here. They don't seem any different from minnows. Minnows do seem ever so slightly better than worms. The whole leech thing is strange and not intuitive. I mean, sure, I get it. Leeches get better leeches that get better leeches and they all allegedly give a higher chance at catching better fish. But, I haven't seen this to be true, with the exception of catching more leeches with leeches. Why aren't black cutworms some sort of rare useful bait? They already exist in game and don't do anything right now. It's already a worm, why not use it? Sardines? I rarely get those and haven't bothered fishing much with them. I saw nothing special when I did use them.

    At the end of the day, I have not seen a meaningful difference between any of the baits.

    7. All POT's being fresh water regardless of placement on the world map.

    I have to assume this is temporary? If a POT is on the ocean, it should be salt water. If it's inland, it should be fresh or fetid.

    8. Sharks aren't hard to get on your hook IRL. They are hard to get in your boat/on the pier/on the beach.

    If you go to a place where there are sharks swimming around, or simply a place that sharks are known for swimming around. There is a good chance, that if you use a bait that they like, and it's not super obvious that it's bait on a hook, they'll bite it and you'll hook them. This is NOT the hard part.


    In a boat, you have to fish them up to the side of the boat and shoot or gaff them (a gaff is like a spear). If the shark is too small to keep and you don't intend to bring it in the boat, you will often leave the hook in its mouth if it isn't very easily removed with special long pliers. The hooks usually get stuck. Some people bring them on the boat first, then decide if they will kill them for food or throw them back. There are relatively safe methods for doing this but I've never gone this route. There are other cruel practices that take place as well, but I consider those unsportsmanlike and not worth mentioning here.

    The hard and dangerous parts about catching a shark are the fight they might give once they realize they're hooked. Their attempts at biting off your hands, arms, legs, or face once they're physically close to you. The sheer weight of lifting one out of the water if it's a really big one. Unless you have a pulley system or a winch, you're going to have a hell of a time getting a big shark out of the water unless you have help. Ohh, and if you catch a baby or adolescent shark, the mother WILL swim around your boat and try to jump in or bash your boat and try to tip it over. They aren't stupid creatures and they do care about their young.

    The hard part really is not just finding where to catch them or using the right bait. The like meat, they like blood, they like whole fish, they like shrimp, and they like cut bait. They'll eat loads of stuff.

    You want to fight a RL monster? Fight a shark. In a sense, Sharks. Are. Monsters. But, be prepared, because they will kill you and they don't drop 5-15 gold and some cloth gloves when you loot them. Just some meat and some shark teeth.

    9. I like the idea of rare stuff, even with fish! But, the RNG has been a problem in sota for many loot situations, for a long time now. It may be time to take a fresh approach to this. Coming up with something better with fishing could be a good place to start!

    How about a progressive rating or luck score, or something like that. Some sort of visible or hidden "luck meter" for lack of a better term. Where if you have done X task 1000 times, then you have a bonus hidden % of Y to succeed in that goal. (Loot and how to obtain it is an ongoing issue that should probably be discussed in another thread but it's relevant here too)

    10. Cooking - Fish dishes.

    Not to sound too mean. But, most of the current fish recipes suck. Sure, a few of the impossibly rare ones are kinda neat (HEY INT FOOD FINALLY!!! OHH HAPPY JOY JOY!!) but they're wayyyy too rare. The low level fish dishes are good for RP situations at best. They have no functional value. Unless improved upon either by the cooking skill improving or the recipes themselves improving, they have literally been a waste to create and a waste of time for players to make. Also, dear devs, INT food is NOT over powered. It really isn't. 5 INT isn't going to make or break a scenario where damage is being dealt by magic. Or by giving a slight focus boost to an archer. I digress, please fix fish dishes <3

    11. Getting a bite, losing your bait or not, fighting the hooked fish.

    So, when you get a bite when fishing, sometimes it is absolutely unmistakable. Other times it's like nothing happened. Sometimes if you're holding your pole, you'll feel these slight vibrations on the pole and other times you'll feel nothing. And then, in other instances, your pole will just bend over and if you aren't ready for it, your pole will just fall in the water, never to be seen again.

    I get how implementing this level of detail in what is essentially suppose to be a "gathering skill" could be a little unreasonable. But, fishing is a very special gathering skill that has a big impact on the player base. A lot of people are interested in fishing being something incredible in Sota. I'm among those players.

    It's hard not to make it a sophisticated mini-game unto itself without giving other gathering skills an equal amount of love. However, if you are going to give a gathering skill some extra love, this is the one to do it with.



    This really could go a lot of ways and I suspect however it ends up going, will be really fun and rewarding!
    Please consider me at your disposal to help with this in any way that I can! (please forgive my typos)

    Thanks for reading!
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  2. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Great post!

    I think @Bzus is Senor Cotton.


    Fishing should no longer be looked at like that. It is already about 70% of the way toward it's own total mini-mega-game (still needs 10% added, plus the polish). Plus, you're not really gathering anything useful, but you ARE collecting trophies. Thus it doesn't make sense to think of it as a gathering skill. It's a sport.

    As an amateur in game fisherman with nowhere near the hours in you have, I have often thought for some time "Man, if they would just put in the last step, fighting the fish when it's a big one, they'd catch (har har) a lot of gamers with fishing alone."

    In other words, I agree. Polish fishing until it shines. The last 20% is the most important, and that applies to subsystems like fishing.

    Another reason to do so: Press. Here's PC Gamers fishing roundup. At the moment it seems like we're at about the WoW level, but with great trophies. The great trophies can't carry it though, not if you want to be in this article next year. Quoting the WoW review:

    We don't even have to click the bobber.... just sayin.

    Edit: I know it's "just a gathering skill". That's not the right way to think about it. It's a major time sink already, but if finished becomes one of the pillars of the sandbox experience.
     
  3. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    I also love the thread. I agree fishing is so much better than I imagined us getting. I'm a little disappointed in a few things and some the op touches upon. One thing is continued reason to fish is sketchy and I hope later that will be addressed. Such as for example having dailies like 'catch of the day progressive quests' with each day completed reward improves. Then it would restart after say 5-10 days.

    Really any progression time would be great to add extra reason to keep fishing after you have acquired it all, well hopefully occasional new things come in especially with message in a bottles and fishing up treasure maps, chests, or quests. I don't want it to be a grind for loot situation totally but more of an exciting adventure wondering what you will get.

    I too was dismayed that no fish aggro and no who said they wanted fishing to be totally relaxing, we want a bit of challenge too right? So speak up community on this if you agree and these things can come later of course but still be in the plan. We speak for details and greater fun in our systems not just grinding and time syncs. I wish that for all our systems. Details that improve and make us want to do things over and over and over.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  4. Kardall

    Kardall Avatar

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    I loved the fishing system in the original rendition of Final Fantasy XIV. Before A Realm Reborn was out. They changed fishing for the worse in my opinion an ARR, and the original was SO amazing. It felt like you were actually fishing.

    Unfortunately I don't have any videos of the original version. But, the way the fishing works right now is pretty much the same initial idea of how fishing works in FFXIV right now I have a crappy video I made 5 years ago that shows me using the skill(s) and such here:

    I managed to find a REALLY OLD video of the original fishing system. I skipped ahead to the point where they started fishing:

    Basically, some kind of skill-shot type system to try to improve fishing would be way more interactive than pushing a skill button. I liked it quite a bit.
     
  5. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Well thought out and an amusing read @Hemswal The Descended .
    The key takeaway / my thoughts are:
    • Less reliance on RNG
    • More consistency and influential choices about:
      • - where you fish (water type){POT biomes, etc.}
      • - when you fish (time of day / season )
      • - rod choice (currently seems to make no difference whatsoever)
      • - bait choice (currently seems to make no difference whatsoever)
    • Fishing "skill" (xp investment) should have more value, currently far too affected by RNG to be worth investing high. (I de levelled all of it from 120 down to 100, can't tell the difference, and that's like 50 million producer xp).
    • Reconsider rarity/tiers and accompanying recipes
      • None of the basic fish recipes are even worth bothering with. Crappy bonus, not cost effective, not good xp to craft = no reason to make them, ever.
      • Consider alternatives - "Seafood platter" requiring 10 of each fish, up the quantity of basic fish needed considerably in order to have a food worth eating.
      • The rare fish recipes use fish that are far, far too rare to actually eat. Consider upping the number of fillets by an order of 10, and its still "maybe."
      • Pacu is not bad, though stll could do with a fillet boost. if you want to keep int food "rare" considering making Pacu the "fish surprise equivalent" at +5 and the rarer fish something truly special.
    • Bait rarity. In over a MILLION apples harvested, I have gotten 5 earthworms. Total. With that kind of rarity, I'd expect to throw that earthworm in the water and catch a magical squid of wish granting. Instead, it seems no different than standard worms.
    • Sushi. Where's the sushi? I mean, just replace "crappy boots" rolls with "seaweed" and we're totally in business.
     
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  6. Joe Zhudarak

    Joe Zhudarak Avatar

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    Good points, the process should matter not the RNG.. If you are using the correct bait, fishing in the spot your result should be better than pure RNG. I like the new fishing but it need more polishment
     
  7. Floors

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    Oh wow look. Dedication pays off. So much for all the threads asking for an easy mode.
     
  8. Hemswal The Descended

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    Not interested in making it easy at all. I'm against that. Just, better.
     
  9. Hemswal The Descended

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    @Bzus Did you get a chance to read over this?
     
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  10. majoria70

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    Thanks for the reminder. I did play FFXIV for a few months but the sound effects were great and the way your pole bent and the way the game displays what is happening. It made you feel like you were fishing as much as a game could that is and their was a lot of depth to the fishing for sure.
     
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  11. Hemswal The Descended

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    @Bzus Bumping for hopes of you giving feed back! :)
     
  12. the Lacedaemonian

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    Up the frequency of those rare fish that give nice buffs to combat skills. Maybe add one fish for archery too
     
  13. the Lacedaemonian

    the Lacedaemonian Avatar

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    This game needs more new stuff to experience.
     
  14. Andrew Silverston

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    From the games I ever played, the best fishing is hands down in Archage, nothing beats fishing from your own Fishing Boat, dropping fish into the tank, then when you boat tanks are full, you go to the coast and have to weigh every big fish on the scale, all that with real animations of you carrying the fish, putting it on the scale etc, and the best part is you receive GOOD gold for your time FUN spent... even though it may be more involved than some would care for. The only negative side is that you can be PvPed out in the sea and then you have to recover your boat, possibly repair it... etc etc.. But PvPers are very decent out in the sea, they usually don't attack unless you are in a hostile guild, etc. I don't expect SOTA to ever reaching this kind of fidelity and diversity of fishing though, too small dev team, but some love the SoTA simplicity, so its all good.



    Then FFXV has very solid arcade type of fishing:

     
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  15. redfish

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    Yea, I've made the point before that when games create processes to do things and limits on players it'll generally end up being more fulfilling than mindless double-clicking, even if it takes longer. Mindless double-clicking is the definition of grinding. Processes create more complex routines and help break up monotony and make the experience feel more fulfilling. It has to be implemented well of course, because its something bad design can mess up. But that's the same kind of balancing act you have in all game design, I think.

    At any rate, the devs have already said they planned to implement a time of day system for catching fish. This is something I personally hope they also apply to other animals, so you might have wolves only coming out of caves at dusk hours, for instance. Even though it places limits on players, limiting appearances of certain spawns based on things like time, weather, and season its part of popular games like Pokemon, and helps make those games interesting and fun.

    I'd still like an 'active fishing' approach where you get a prompt to pull up the line, and you can miss it depending on both timing and skill. "The fish has gotten away." If we want to be inclusive towards 'passive' players, the game could simply give you a better chance if you play actively. I would ideally wish they'd move as much of the gathering/crafting skills to this type of approach as possible, though that would depend on finding suitable and enjoyable gameplay mechanics.

    And yes, I'm hoping eventually fishing evolves towards "fishing encounters." Sharks were enemy encounters in most Ultima games. Pulling up a shark (or mosasaur) should create an encounter.
     
  16. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    You will have to post more images and videos to beat @majoria70 's usual "getting my point across method". ;)
     
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