Spawn Camping?

I read a question from InsaneMembrane about the potential for spawn camping hex entrances when players zone into them. I wanted to create a topic to either search for a solution or alleviate concerns if the community already knows more than I do about this potential issue. Assume PvP is enabled by all parties. I can think of 2 standard options off the top of my head.

1. Lady's Tees! The entry point to a hex could be set further back than the exit point, so that players already in the hex cannot travel into a "safe zone" buffer that new players spawn into. The only problem I see here is that there is less usable hex space and this tactic may not work for all hexes that require that space to be used. It is a map design problem and may waste too much valuable space.

2. Invincibility. Zoning into a new hex provides X seconds of invulnerability where you cannot attack and is canceled once you perform an action. Players could still camp the spawn or even hide near it, waiting for players to lose their "shield" and gank them.

Is spawn camping even a concern? Is it all part of the game? Will story and quest hexes be PvP enabled? Certain key quest hexes might always be camped by players waiting for other PvP enabled players to pass through, making life difficult until they decide to switch back to PvE in order to do the story. Even if only known PvP hexes allow for PvP, there will undoubtedly be players waiting to attack anyone who zones in. I plan on playing in PvP but also would like to minimize cheap deaths so I am curious about what kinds of ideas people have to address this mechanic.

 

This actually does have potential to become an issue in my opinion, but a few things have to line up and I think you've done a decent job with your speculation. I play another Unity based "mmo" style game, it is also dual scale map where you enter smaller areas off the main map for the bulk of the game play. Battlestar Galactica Online, and it has had it's share of spawn camping issues.

Have a look at this video I've recorded a few years ago of the Colonial meat bags camping our Cylon spawn point. At the time of this video, outposts had been added to help protect spawn areas and the jump-in points(spawns) were randomized. It didn't help much. We had to collect a fleet of guild ships over Team Speak and break the spawn camp by manually syncing our jump-ins.


One of the biggest issues with that game is that the game(bsgo) actually uses Unity web cache. So what that means is that you spawn in a system and it could then take 10-30 seconds at loading screen, depending on your internet connection speed / quality, to load the assets which were not already in the Unity web cache. Can you see where I'm going with this? Yup, you could jump into the system wait 10 seconds, then literally spawn into a ship explosion and die because you are already dead by the time the game had loaded the required assets to let you continue in the map instance

Two things on that, eventually(8 months later) BSGO changed it so it pre-loads cached assets and then spawns you preventing the spawn instant deaths. Second, and very importantly Chris has already answered a direct question of mine on SotA about this specific web caching issue issue in a kickstarter Q&A. SotA will not use any sort of web caching, I believe Chris' words were "that is terrible programming, who would do that!" lol So that is a good start.

Another problem was death in BSGO. You died, you could just respawn with a half health ship and head back over, making it there in about 2-6 mins depending on which class ship you are flying. So size of the map instance is and how death is handled will really play into this big time and I think is one of the more important things to think about on this issue.

Another way to indicate that you could be moving into a dangerous hex instance, if there is a certain level of PvP activity in the hex, it could be indicated by a set of crossed swords(or whatever) on the map hex. This could be handy to draw people to the PvP who wish to participate and ward those off who don't want to get ganked when they spawn in I can see that idea being both loved and hated though. But I do think that all hexes should be offered to PvP if one chooses to PvP in that hex. Need some form of freedom to do what you want in the game, and maybe this would help both parties.

I don't like the idea of any kind of invulnerability though, this can be exploited in a few ways.

Lastly, as of information released by BigPoint games... Spawn camping in BSGO is still at large and is still being addressed by the Devs... Good luck team

 

I've no idea how this might be implemented, but how about a LOOK function. The dual map is there for convenience and I fully support it, but fictionally we aren't opening a door or transporting into a hex, we are to imagine traveling a continuous countryside. Shouldn't we have the advantage of seeing what is directly in front of us?

This LOOK function would present to us an image of our first step into the hex before we took that step alerting us of entry point camping.

 

Even in NWN where you transitioned through Areas "Zone" camping was a big deal. I never saw any solution that worked properly. Well other than casting haste and invisibility and blowing though that puppy like there was no tomorrow.

I like LordStack's idea of there being an entrance foyer on each zone. As you load in there would be a small path leading into the area. There would be 2 exit points: One right behind you and only accessible to those that just entered and one a sort distance before you that people inside the "proper" area would need to use. The real problem would be Area spells and people hanging out in this little area rather than enter the area proper. You could make this entrance road sort of like a cinematic where your character(s) walk slowly into the area looking ahead. They would be invincible for the trip with some sort of option to exit the area (should there be campers). Otherwise the auto-walk would continue until they are in the area proper. Usually there is some sort of unwalkable mesh around area to give the illusion of it being bigger, so this would just be part of that.

Otherwise it could be a certain distance from the entrance was considered non-PVP and players could not cast spells or draw weapons (sheathing them if drawn). However, you better hope your not being chased out by monsters, which could also lead to people aggro-ing mods to entrances.

In EVE when you warped into an area you were invisible for a short time which normally allowed you to warp back out or to another area. Not perfect solution but at least you usually knew you were going to die.

This is a good idea too although I would call it a SCOUT option. Probably the easiest to implement. However, I guess with any of these people may just sit just outside of view, but at least you would have a chance to flee as they rushed you.

 

Well at least I get to see the first square of every instance and know where my body is.
This sounds like a problem.
hmmm

I keep thinking recall runes to solve this. But that leads to another argument.

 

I don't see anything wrong with people hiding beyond the sight of the entrance. It's called an ambush. I thought the purpose was to give you a chance to gather your wits, avoid any lag advantage.

 

I guess it depends on how much or far you can see. Would be interesting if - when entering a scene - you get a godlike camera over the starting area. You have an option to exit or place your avatar and any NPC companions. Strategically place your pawns then enter the area. Any entering player would also see other entering player pawns.

This could make zone camping unexpected for campers and camp-ees.

 

It will probably mean firefields all over the spawning area.
Or someone herded all the creatures to the area.
Or walls all over so you can't move.
Maybe they will just paralysis you.
Meteor Swarm would work.

Look or some kind of safe area to spawn into first would probably fix things.

 

I believe this problem can be avoided, as long as the design takes that into account from the start.

When it comes to the lag coming in, do it like BSGO apparently did, according to AvatarAcid's post: load the assets, prep the client engine, and only after that do the transition itself. The player is already ready to react by the time other people in the hex can see him.

As for the spawn camping itself: do remember that hexes have 6 sides. An hex without obstructions on it's sides can be entered from any side, which would then require at least 6 groups to spawn camp. Even hexes with most sides closed off could be made to have at least 2-3 entry points that the player can choose by changing how he approaches the hex.

On top of that, hex sizes don't have rigid limits. Adding extra space in order to have more spawn points per side, spreading them out, shouldn't be any problem; slight changes in how the player approaches the hex would then result in different spawn points being picked. An algorithm that makes the specific spawn point random, but biased towards being as far as possible from the players already in the hex, could even be used, making spawn camping mostly impossible.

Umbrae's idea is also very interesting; show the border of the side of the hex the player will enter from, including any character and mobs not in hiding, and let the player place his character and any companions on the border in any way he wants. Perhaps this could even be improved by allowing the party leader to place the other player's characters, for a bit more coordination and strategic control when entering an hex, perhaps even coupled with the game syncing the whole party so they get inside the hex at exactly the same time, further reducing the tactical advantage of spawn camping.

 

It won't be a concern if you can change your PvP flag after you zone in, once inside the hex.
That is, an area within a hex could be designated PvP enabled. It doesn't have to be the entire hex. Even if it was 75% of the hex, or 50% or 25%, whatever amount within the hex that's been set aside for the PvP Task/Quest/Event/Whatever, anything less than 100% prevents zone/spawn camping entirely.
Keep in mind, we're talking about many thousands of open-land hexes, for episode 1, and each open world hex at least 1km x 1km. That's an enormous amount of area. As in, you could probably fit the entire above-ground map of original UO within a few hexes, if 1 UO tile = 1 meter. Looooots of space!

 

I understand where this could be a problem. But it seems to be at the confluence of many mechanics we no nothing about.

I like the idea of zoneing in invincible to some kind of "waiting room" area where you could see the hex and possibly run away. So you have to actually hide to ambush. This feels realistic.

 

I can agree with zoning in invincible for 5-10 seconds as long as you are not able to attack anything while invincible, and when you move more than a few feet from the zone in you are immediately vulnerable. Should be plenty of time to buff up (do buffs (spell or food) stay through zoning?) or to hide, see invis, or whatever you need to do.

 

The most realistic way would be for some system that allowed people to enter the instance from any point on the boundary. I know this creates big design problems, but are there any creative people who might have a solution for how to choose where you enter? Maybe the zoom on the overhead could go in low and you could walk around to pick a point to enter? There still would be a chance to ambush a road entry where people might enter more regularly, but, as would happen in a dynamic environment, if people learned the road was ambushed, they would go around through woods or whatever to avoid it.

Why can't we try to find a solution for the most realistic way to do it - then if no one has a good idea, look for a spawn point solution?

 

I don't think a single hex should combine PvP-enabled with no-PvP zones; the whole hex should be either PvP or no-PvP. Also, I don't think players should be able to toggle their PvP status within a hex.

This doesn't create problems with PvP events in a hex, BTW, because different players can see different local maps for the same hex; it's one of the pegged advantages of dual scale maps. If there's a PvP event happening in a specific hex, players that accept to participate can go to the local map where the PvP event is happening, while players that choose to not take part go to a different local map without the event (or it's rewards).

 

Even if someone can't change their flag within the hex, setting aside a portion of the area (the outside 10%) as no-pvp (regardless of your flag setting), so people can't be griefed, seems a simple solution.

Given what you outline, Silent_Strider, what's your solution for zone camping, or killing someone at the edge of the hex, as they appear, or waiting immediately at the edge of the invulnerability area/ zone chokepoint with 10 hidden friends? Or can you elaborate a bit on why you don't want both in the same land-hex?

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It doesn't break immersion to take 10% of the hex area and set it aside as neutral. It completely prevents all the social problems associated with the mechanic, and allows players to prepare, enter the pvp area where and when they wish, and still allows for ambushes and all the other pvp related strategic options, within the pvp area. Players enter via the green, no problems at all, then their pvp flag is forced on when they enter the yellow area. They get a warning that a portion of the hex is pvp enabled when they enter the hex, so there's no surprises, and they can leave if they wish.

When I come across decisions like this, I ask myself "Do I want to grief players, or do I want all playing customers to have challenging fun?" The answer typically dictates the mechanic.

 

So let me ask a dumb question. I don't know if I've ever heard an explicit answer - there will be no way to encounter people on the overland map? They should a gypsy wagon moving on the original demo - NPC encounters?

@vjek - your solution would have to address people stepping out of the yellow zone to get out of combat unfairly and then stepping back in. It can't be a permanent zone.

 

That problem would exist regardless of the solution, if players are allowed to leave the hex at any time, leave the pvp area at any time, or can recall out of combat. They could leave via the edge of the hex if the entire hex was flagged.

Any pvp enabled border (regardless if it's the entire hex or not) would permit players to leave combat "unfairly" at any time. This is exactly what happened in Warhammer Online, which utilized this same mechanic.
Again: The problem you've outlined will exist, regardless if the pvp area was smaller than the entire hex or was the entire hex. You simply move the "flee from combat" issue from one area to another.

As PvP is consensual in SotA, and this has been put forth as a cornerstone design philosophy by the Portalarium team, I personally have no problem with that issue. That's why I suggested it, because it works for SotA, in light of their stated goals.

If I were to go hunting for other players, I would ensure I did not start combat until they were of sufficient distance away from the border that by running, they could not escape. I would also co-ordinate with my fellow hunters such that they would prevent such escape, if attempted. But that's just me.

A very artificial mechanism would be to trap the players within the pvp area (or hex) if they were in pvp combat. I suspect, though, that it would be a very unpopular in-game mechanic.

While geographical measures can be used (such as one way cliffs, bridges, chasms) I wouldn't want to see such restrictions placed on the art team. It also limits the flexibility of the use of hexes in general, and prevents dynamically or procedurally placing pvp areas.

 

Lets say there are a few spawn points when you drop down from the top map to the instance.
But what about coming in from one of the side instances.
If you came in from one of the side areas would you then come in at the same area where the two connect?
So say I'm walking along the river at the end of one instance.
Would I then start the next instance still walking along the river?
Or are there only a few points no matter how you come into the instance?

 

I still say find a way to allow players to enter a hex at any point on the border

 

Ok, had a bit more of a chat about this in IRC.

So, here's an updated version of the proposed anti-spawn-camping mechanic:

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• When entering the hex, you're warned that it's a player conflict area. Leave or stay, your choice.
• A portion of the hex is designated a player conflict area. (illustrated by the yellow circle.)
• As you cross the "line" from green to yellow, your pvp-yes-kill-me-now flag is set.
• After that point, if you are engaged in pvp combat, your pvp-yes-kill-me-now flag cannot be UNset until you leave the hex.

This allows prey the choice of entering or leaving, so no surprises there.
This allows predators the opportunity to chase their prey to the hex edge. (they can chase you across the distance designated by "A" )

Thoughts? Concerns? Exploits?

Optional mechanic: The size of the "chase region" (distance designated by "A") could be tuned for balance, regardless of the size or shape of the pvp designation. (instead of using the hex edge)